Talk:Bertrand Russell

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Good article Bertrand Russell was one of the Philosophy and religion good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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[edit] Asperger syndrome

Is it possible that he suffered from Asperger syndrome? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.117.23.221 (talk) 12:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

All I could find were rather speculative pieces. I found a bit more though on Wittgenstein though. Come to think of it I'm not surprised especially considering the whole Popper/Poker incident.

Exiledone (talk) 19:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

He quite possibly did have Asperger, but you need a good cite before including it in the article.  Randall Bart   Talk  21:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Everybody quite possibly has Asperger, and quite possible owns a teapot in orbit round the sun. Not really worth mentioning in everybody's biography though, is it? --Philogo 23:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] English or Welsh?

The main article states that he's Welsh, but the categories at the bottom of the page have him in "English Philosophers" and "English anti-communists". So which is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.35.67 (talk) 00:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

It looks like a rather silly attempt to "claim" him for the Welsh. He was born to an aristocratic English family, brought up in England and spent nearly all of his working life in England. He is well known as an English philosopher and there are plenty of references to this. I will change it to British, as a compromise position, but in all honesty I think it should be English. There is more to nationality than simply birthplace. --Archstanton 09:00, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Change to English, which is his own usage; we've had this before. Even claiming Monnouthshire as Wales in 1872 is eminently disputable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I noticed someone had changed it to Welsh again. Have reverted. --Archstanton 12:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know where else to put this comment, so I'll put it here. Russel's picture needs to seriously be changed. He SHOULD NOT be looking like a man from the 1880s, when there are other, better pictures of him suavely in his older years without that ridiculous mustache. I demand there be put up a more contemporary photo of Bertrand where he a) he has no mustache, b) he has white, gray hair, and c) he is smoking a pipe. This will give wikipedia, which is somewhat the point of wikipedia, a more use-friendly feel to Russel. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.212.128.99 (talk) 23:31, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ontological Argument

The article seems to suggest that he fully "accepted" it, which I don't think was true. If this wasn't the intent of the section, then it should probably be better explained. --Jammoe 22:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotation sections

It is my recommendation that the quotations in the sections "Russell summing up his life", "Comments about Russell", and "Quotations" be either removed and transferred to WikiQuote, or incorporated into the overall narrative about Russell's life and views. Such selective quoting is not only a violation of WP:NPOV, but is also fundamentally unencyclopedic. -Silence 02:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree- i pretty much unwittingly repeated what you said below. unless i hear some sort of good justification in the near future, i am going to delete them. the quotes already exist on wikiquote. Acornwithwings 20:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Atheist?

Russell summed himself up, as quoted, as an agnostic. He was a fundamentally anti-religious agnostic, except for the period of "A Free Man's Worship"; but Category:Atheist mathematicians, Category:Atheist philosophers ,Category:Atheist thinkers and activists, and Category:British atheists are excessive and misleading. Septentrionalis 17:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

An Agnostic, in the modern sense of the word, is someone who does at least think one of those "gods" might be real and he/she can't know. Russell clearly states that he does not think any of those to be existent as there is no shred of evidence. But he said that he does not think there in some omnipotent/omniscient being. He said that there might be super-human intelligence somewhere but you will find any atheist admitting to that as well, because atheists never claim to possess ultimate knowledge. The question is, if any god existed, would it have mattered for Russell? And I think the answer to that question is no. --SoWhy Talk 09:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Russell, as I understand him, is only an agnostic in the classical sense: he has a-gnosis ("lack of knowledge") regarding deities. He has described himself as an agnostic in philosophical theory (because he doesn't "know" that gods don't exist, lacking definitive proof that they can't exist), but an atheist for all practical purposes (because he does not believe in any deities, and, indeed, explicitly rejects claims that deities exist). By those standards, almost all atheists are agnostics too, because they don't claim to "know" with certainty that deities don't exist; they merely find it implausible that they do. For further information, see Russell's Am I An Atheist Or An Agnostic? -Silence 17:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing misleading about the atheist categories. As it has been noted, Russell (for practical and reference purposes) declared nothing wrong about being called an atheist. In fact, he fits the criteria for "Weak atheism", still nothing misleading. Furthermore, category:Atheist mathematicians states atheists or agnostics are being refered to. Canadianism 05:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I see this has been fixed. Calling an agnostic an atheist is misleading. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Labelling anyone either is misleading, as both terms are open to instense subjection. See wiki entries for both ## anon

His self-identification is Rationalist, and he found both terms problematic. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Is it me or does this article not anywhere mention Russell's viewpoint on religion? This seems rather strange for an article about the man who authored 'Why I am not a Christian' and who was a champion of both rationalism and agnosticism. I see that previous page versions did include such a section, has it been vandalised out or is it a conscious decision not to discuss it Billsmith453 (talk) 16:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comments section and Summation of Own Life

I have deleted these sections for the reasons myself and others have listed above: the article is very long, the Comments section is basically a laudatory quotes section and belongs (and already exists) in Wikiquote, and the summation of his life violates NPOV. I did this as these issues were brought up many times and there hasn't been much in the way of contestation. Additionally, the article would be more neutral, concise and informative if there were fewer quotes of Russell in the article, but I don't feel qualified to edit these as i have not read much Russell and don't know much about the context of these quotes. It does Russell no service to have a wikipedia article about him that violates NPOV. Acornwithwings 01:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] m The Principles of Mathematics

this book is linked to four times along the page, and doesn't have an article. is it needed? and more generally, why not merge "writings online" into "selected bibliography"? trespassers william 20:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eugenics and race

The quotations in the section Eugenics and race of the article are simply irreconcilable among themselves, in spite of the admirable efforts displayed by the editor.

Let's face the facts: Bertrand Russel was a racist, to the point of advocating birth control targeted only at "coloured races" ("Lecture by the Hon. Bertrand Russell", Birth Control News, vol. 1, no. 8, December 1922, p.2), and to describe the extermination of “negroes” only, all considered (and “apart from questions of humanity” [sic!]), as “undesirable” ([sic!], Bertrand Russell, Marriage and Morals, 1929).

In the course of time, he partly "softened" his views, partly changed their expression, when, especially after the II World War (Bertrand Russell, New Hopes for a Changing World, London: Allen & Unwin, 1951, p. 108), it would not have been “politically” correct” to display such outspoken racist and “eugenetic” views.

Also, probably Bertrand Russel realized that his former unrestrained racist and “eugenetic” views were not much in character with his post-war image of liberal, non-conformist, political agitator.
Miguel de Servet 17:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Miguel de Servet: You say that Russell changes his views after "it would not have been “politically” correct” to display such outspoken racist and “eugenetic” views. " Do you maintain that he changed his views when he did **because** it would have been unpopular not to? If you so maintain, you're committing a fallacy (post hoc ergo propter hoc.) If you do not so maintain, you're just stating the obvious; yes(I'll assume you're premises), he discarded his racist views after WWII, and after WWII was when racism and "eugenicism" became " 'politically' correct," - therefore Russell discarded his racist views when his racist views became "'politically' incorrect." So which is it? Are you making a bad inference, or is the law of identity just that fascinating? "probably Bertrand Russel realized that his former unrestrained racist and 'eugenetic' views were not much in character with his post-war image of liberal, non-conformist, political agitator." Either you have an inductive proof for this or you intuit it. A (cogent) inductive proof would be interesting. (In coming up with it, you'll have to account for the possibility that Russell actually believed what he said.) An intuition would not be so. But I'll assume what you say is interesting, and I'll consequently be waiting for your cogent inductive proof... Raimm 04:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Judging from chronology alone, it would seem that before 1929 he was unabashedly racist and from at least 1932 he was beginning to rethink that view.--Rob117 05:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not that hard to argue he was just using the language of the times and was commenting on the issues of the times. If those are the best examples, I don't think there is much of a case. --24.57.157.81 04:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe there is anything to face here - to counter the first comment. Russell did not believe that every men is equal, but he was not racist and I don't think the claim is justified looking at the time period and his comments. Here is a passage from Lincoln : "I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race..." But still I do not think Lincoln was racist.

So, because of the "time period" they were not racist, no matter what they said or thought? That's very strange.--Fracastorius 09:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Lincoln was a supremacist; Bertrand Russell was a supremacist. Eugenics, British imperialism, tropical labor camps, the U.S. civil war, abolition, reconstruction, Western liberalism: all processes & ideologies undertaken by the Anglo-American elite to foster, protect & promulgate the global hegemony of those of European heritage. Hegemony - domination - supremacy. If rendered as such semantically, do any of you care to quibble with these historic truisms? sewot_fred 02:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Rande M Sefowt: Your comment is an excellent piece of rhetoric, and it thus seems beautifully written. But like many other excellent pieces of rhetoric which (by their being excellent pieces of rhetoric) seem beautifully written, it has little substance; it contains phrases which (I think) are meaningless. In particular, what in Jove's name does "rendered as such semantically" mean? And what in Hera's is a "historic truism?" Raimm 04:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


As someone mostly ignorant of Russell's work, I am perhaps in a good position to judge the section on race and eugenics as confusing and poorly written. One paragraph in particular (the one with all the ampersands) sounds like a hectoring rant about what an evil racist man Russell was - which is in complete disagreement with the other, more moderate paragraphs which attempt to rationalise the seeming contradictions in his views on other races. I particularly enjoy how the paragraph calls a preceding argument 'wholly ridiculous'. If someone who is knowledgeable on the subject wants to edit it to present in a fair and NPOV the various interpretations of his views on race, that would be very useful. ApathyAndExhaustion 09:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I have radically rewritten the section in question. Nothing in the text seriously supports an argument that he favored eugenics; advocating birth control in the third world and expressing concern over population growth does not qualify by any measure. The rest--on racism--is simply bunk, complete and total fabrications hinging on a deliberate misinterpretation of a few key passages in contradiction to Russell's own statements and longstanding views. The only people I know of who take that position at all seriously are extreme fringe groups such as followers of Lyndon Larouche; their views do not belong anywhere in the article. I support reducing the accusations of racism down to a single passage, perhaps a sentence or two, and will do so shortly unless citations from credible commentators accusing him of racism can be produced. We cannot simply say that 'some people' have accused him of racism; we must cite who. If we cannot produce that (or if it is only fringe maniacs such as Larouche), the view does not belong in the article. Interpreting quotes ourselves (or trying to arrange selectively-chosen quotes in order to imply an interpretation) is original research; only interpretations cited to a credible source can be present in the article. --Aquillion 03:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influences and Influenced

I have started a discussion regarding the Infobox Philosopher template page concerning the "influences" and "influenced" fields. I am in favor of doing away with them. Please join the discussion there. RJC Talk 14:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal

I have removed the following:

Millions looked up to Russell over the course of his long life, holding him to be a prophet of the creative and rational life; at the same time, his stances on many topics were controversial, and millions more hated him. Both positions may be summarized by the epithet he earned: "Hammer of the Christians"[citation needed].

... because it is weaselly and, as long as it remains unsourced, meaningless. The fact of the controversy surrounding him should be stated as such, rather than with such silly unattributed bits of rhetoric like "a prophet of the creative and rational life". The nickname is interesting but again unsourced; Google gives no support to it whatsoever. — Dan | talk 22:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's all nonsense. The nickname is made up. --Dannyno 15:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article Review

I have nominated this for WP:GA/R due to inadequate referencing. I hope the article gets the attention it deserves during this process to retain its quality rating. Please see discussions at Wikipedia:Good_article_review#Bertrand_Russell. I also hope someone will add an {{ArticleHistory}} template to this page. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 16:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

This article Bertrand Russell seems to be suffering from tag-itis. The number of citation tags etc makes the article look unprofessional.

The article is a good article, but it can and should be improved. The mention of views which were on occasion expressed by Russell and which have been characterized as racist needs to be handled delicately, NPOV, which needs a good editor, not necessarily better references. That Russell lived through most of the century, therefore influencing nearly everyone, and being influenced by many, is beyond dispute, but not necessarily supported by a hundred references. So much work has gone into this article, perhaps some little tidying or freshening is needed? This would be work for experienced editors (much more experienced).

suggestions?--Newbyguesses 17:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

ps, the thought just occurred to me that the two citations needed in the firstpara could probably be answered with source Russell's last letter, read at a conference on the day after his death. Can't remember where that source is just now? --Newbyguesses 17:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Considering it is in the scope of eight WikiProjects, possibly we could get at least one of them to begin work. Something for the main contributing editor/s of this article to consider. I would leave messages on project pages.
Regards, LaraLoveT/C 18:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Delisted GA status

This article was beyond GA review and, thus, has been speedily delisted. Its current state is no where near GA quality. There needs to be many more references and inline citations for an article of this length and, as a biography, there really needs to be a high standard with those references. Once the quality of this article has been improved, it may be renominated for GA. If it is felt that this decision was made in error, remediation may be requested at WP:GA/R. Regards, LaraLoveT/C 17:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree. Two citations for a 77k long article is ridiculous, especially for a biographical article!—Elipongo (Talk|contribs) 18:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Error in paragraph Second World War?

After the Second World War, Russell taught at the University of Chicago,

Shouldn't that rather be Before ...? (as I understand other pages about Russell and given that it seems out of place if after is really meant) --84.152.2.218 01:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Richard Dawkins influenced by Russell?

The article says that biologist Richard Dawkins is influenced by Bertrand Russell. I don't see the influence philosopher Bertie has on biologist Dawkins. There are plenty people who have undergone more influence of Russell.

Dawkins borrowed the orbiting teapot argument off Russell for a start. If there's a deeper, philosophical, influence the claim should be sourced. --Dannyno 10:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC

[edit] Louis Pojman

It's a bit strange to see Louis Pojman referred to in this article as a theologian. Pojman was a philosopher, not a theologian. His academic positions were in philosophy, and his contributions to the field of philosophy are indisputable. I know of no contribution from him to the field of theology. Parableman 17:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Renom

I've replaced the remaining {{fact}} tags with references, and it looks like those and the rest should cover everything. I've put it up for another GA Review, hopefully it'll make it this time. Hersfold (t/a/c) 00:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA quick fail

This article is obviously very detailed, but currently a user cannot verify any of that detail (there are even uncited direct quotations). Much more of this article needs to be sourced using inline citations or some other form of citation. The editors might take a moment to peruse some of wikipedia's FA biographies, such as Balzac, and some of its other GA biographies, such as W. H. Auden, to get a sense of what is required. Awadewit | talk 03:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Great Minds, Great Thinkers

The page on Bertrand Russel at [1] is nearly word-for-word identical to this entry. I assume it is the one plagarising, rather than the other way round, but I thought you all should knowIsaac Benaron 18:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Many sites suck up Wikipedia's content, which is freely redistributable under the GFDL license. But thanks for posting! --Lquilter (talk) 00:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism Section

I think the article would benefit from a section devoted to criticism of some of his theories. Many Analytic philosophers disagree with some of his theories especially his theories on epistemology. It would also make the article more neutral. Exiledone (talk) 17:50, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

In general, separate criticism sections are not a good idea; a separate section simultaneously ghettoizes and decontextualizes criticism, and serves as a troll magnet. It's far better stylistically and content-wise to embed and contextualize critiques in the appropriate sections. I suggest that you add some material directly to those sections--it would be great to have a bit of information describing the impact & reception & continuing assessment of Russell's contributions to epistemology. --Lquilter (talk) 00:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Between the wars, and second marriage

There is a problem in this section which is simple but I don’t know how to solve it and thought someone else could. The problem is in the following text and its link: “Russell's marriage to Dora grew increasingly tenuous, and it reached a breaking point over her having two children with an American journalist, Griffin Barry.“ When you click on the link to Griffin Barry or look Griffin Barry up with the search engine, it goes to the article on Dora Russell. Barry is mentioned near the end of the article but does not seem to have an article of his own.Jgmccue (talk) 22:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

You're right, Barry has no article of his own right now. The article he originally had was short, and was redirected to Dora Russell, probably due to him being non-notable. I've removed the links to Griffin Barry to avoid the confusion. You may argue to delete the redirect altogether at WP:RFD. –Pomte 23:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Empiricist-rationalist

The into sentence of this article described Russell as, among other things, a "prominent rationalist." I noticed this didn't completely gel with what I personally have learned (I'm an undergraduate philosophy student) so I ran a quick Google search to see if either the article or myself were off base. The vast majority of online sources describe Russell as something in between[2], such as a "rational empiricist," or even primarily as a logical empiricist (Hjørland, "Journal of documentation," 2005 p. 131) This own article even talks about Russell's own strains of empiricism in the "Logical atomism" section. I realize that the two are not mutually exclusive, but I feel describing Russell solely as a "prominent rationalist" in the first sentence with no empiricist counterbalance is misleading. I've removed the words "prominent rationalist" from the end of the sentence. Thoughts? 134.69.168.154 (talk) 07:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "anti-communist"

User:Smiloid added the "anti-communist" category to this article and Emma Goldman, based on their ultimate opposition to Soviet state Communism. This is a confusion between "communism" and "Communism". The category currently is "anti-communist" -- small c -- denoting opposition to communism as a philosophical and political position. It was historically inaccurate to describe Goldman as anti-communist, although of course she did end up being critical of capital-C Communist. A similar problem exists for use of this category here. It's my understanding that Russell was a socialist, and although opposed to the Soviet state, was not in any sense "anti-communist" (lower-c). I suggest removing the category, but post here for discussion by regular editors first. --Lquilter (talk) 13:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

Comments have been moved to Talk:Bertrand Russell/GA Review

[edit] Lead

I think this article is very good. However, the lead of the article should be expanded. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 05:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Split

I'm proposing to split this article. Creating a new page Philosophy of Bertrand Russel or Philosophical work of Betrand Russel. The first paragraphy in section 2 (Philosophical work) could stay as an intro, but the rest could be moved... Comments:

Done. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 03:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure this is a good idea. While there may not be any other major philosophers with quite as active and varied a public life as Russell had, it's standard for biographies of philosophers to, y'know, feature their philosophical work. I'd like to see what other people think about this split. Moreover, we should certainly include more information on the main page even if we leave the bulk of it on another page. JustinBlank (talk) 12:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] bad photo choice

I hope this is the right venue for sharing this opinion I don't want to edit the article, but would like to suggest that wikipedia consider using a different photo of Russell. There is a universally accepted image of Russell (older, with the unkempt hair) which you are avoiding with that ridiculously early picture. To me, it makes the whole page look laughably esoteric, like an annoying fan who says he stopped paying attention after the band's first album.

Why use that photo? The worst sin you can make, as an encyclopedia, is provide information to new readers that will actually make them look like a fool if they use it. A person who describes Russell with your picture will be laughed at. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.145.165.198 (talk) 06:39, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

We are basically restricted to using "free" images, i.e. those which have been released with very few restrictions on their use. David Underdown (talk) 07:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
A better picture is further down in the article, but it's a book cover, so it can only be used where the book is discussed, not at the top of the article.  Randall Bart   Talk  21:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)