Talk:Bert Jansch

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Good article Bert Jansch has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
January 16, 2007 Good article nominee Listed
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Contents

[edit] Biographical detail

I have added a lot of details, summarised from the Doug Kennedy book which I have referenced. Although this is a music book, not a biography, it appears to have been written with Jansch's co-operation: the transcriptions seem very authentic and are accompanied by some quotes from Jansch. Hence, I think the details are likely to be accurate. Bluewave 17:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Can someone please add the pronunciation of "Jansch"? Is the J pronounced as a J or a Y? It looks as if his surname might be of Germanic origin (?). Badagnani 06:46, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The great majority of people seem to pronounce like a Y but I have talked to someone who knew Bert in the 1960s and consistently pronounces it like J. Bluewave 06:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I just found a reference and added it to the article. Was just listening to Solomons Seal while getting my car repaired this morning. What a great group Pentangle was. Badagnani 06:58, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black Swan

The reference to "Black Swan" being released in September 2005 was surely a mistake for September 2006. The notes related to it have been re-framed into the past tense, and moved into the main body. The untidy brackets have been tidied.

[edit] References

I have had a bash at citing sources for most of the statements made in the article, and have taken the opportunty to add a bit more material. Also added sections about his guitars and his influence. It would now probably benefit from a good review by someone else. Bluewave 12:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Horseshoe folk club

There might be more than one folk club in London called the horseshoe, but the only one I have been able to track down is the one in the pub called the Horseshoe in Islington. NOT Tottenham Court Road. Does anyone have a citation to support the claim that there was ever a club called the Horseshoe in Tottenham Court Road? There is certainly no pub of that name there now. I'll give you a couple of months, and if nothing is forthcoming, and I am very inclined to change the text from "Tottenham Court Road" to "Islington". Here again, I have found no evidence that he founded that club either, but at least the geography will be verifiable, and that club still exists. Ogg 19:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

One references: Jacqui McShee's website includes: "Pentangle first performed together at the Horseshoe Pub in London's Tottenham Court Road, late in 1967" [1] quoted from a Pentange programme I think.Bluewave 07:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Have done a bit more research today. London phone book for 1970 has "Horseshoe Hotel", Tottenham Court Road, W1, so this is a possibility. The Doug Kennedy book says "Bert, and John Renbourn started the 'Horshoe' folk club in Tottenham Court Road". Bluewave 19:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

This link:

suggests that it was a jazz club rather than a folk club, and that it was at 264-267 Tottenham Court Road (now Gultronics). In the 70's it became jazz club JAFFAS:

It is mentioned twice in "Electric Folk" by Britta Sweers (2005), in both cases in 1967 only, but in neither case is it suggested that it was a folk club. If Jansch had actually founded it, I think there would be more than one source to support it. If he did found it, he can't have been hosting it for long, because in 1967/8 he catapulted himself into super-stardom, too expensive for a small venue. The Islington folk club (now at the Horseshoe) is one of the 3 or 4 oldest folk clubs in London, and certainly out-ranks the Tottenham Court Road venue in importance. Would you be terribly upset if the square bracks were removed, and the words "folk and jazz" replaced "folk"? Ogg 20:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you're right that Kennedy was using "Folk club" in a very general sense and I would support your "folk and jazz" suggestion. There are several refs to them playing at the Horseshoe in Tottenham Ct Rd, so I think that part is OK. As for who founded the club, I can only find Kennedy supporting Jansch/Renbourn, so agree this may be doubtful. One other ref is the Unterberger book which quotes Ian Anderson of fRoots "Bert and John set themselves up in a club in Tottenham Court Road. They had a residency for some months.Basically, it was experimental. I don't think they rehearsed what they were doing very much..." I couldn't find a mention of the Horseshoe on Renbourn's website, although he does mention Les Cousins (incidentally I have been thinking about starting a Les Cousins article!) Bluewave 13:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Stop press! I've just found this article[2] from the Scotsman, quoting Bert: "Jansch met the guitarist John Renbourn. 'We shared a flat, and we got fed up with the Cousins scene because it was an all-night affair. If you were booked to play there you had to be there from midnight til dawn. There was a guy called Bruce Dunnett, who was a left-wing Scotsman, a communist, but he was an entrepreneur. He ran this club for us, the Horseshoe. Me and John were looking towards getting a band together, but anyone could get up and play. Sandy Denny was there. Various drummers and bass players. And out of it came Pentangle.'" Bluewave 13:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

That sounds pretty definitive. We seem to have some sort of concensus along the lines of: "Renbourn and Jansch frequently played together, developing their own intricate interplay between the two guitars, often referred to as Folk Baroque. In 1966, they recorded the Bert and John album together, featuring much of this material. Late in 1967 they tired of the all-nighters at Les Cousins and helped Bruce Dennett set up a music venue at The Horshoe pub (now defunct) at 264-267 Tottenham Court Road. Sandy Denny was there. Jacqui McShee began singing with the two guitarists and, with the addition of Danny Thompson (string bass) and Terry Cox (drums), they formed the group, Pentangle. The venue evolved into a jazz club, but by then the group had moved on. ... In 1968 Jansch married ... etc". I leave it up to you to do the honours. Ogg 20:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

OK. Thanks. Have done. I changed your words slightly....feel free to improve! Bluewave 13:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Les Cousins

Best of luck with the "Les Cousins" article. Here are some starter notes towards it:

The "Les Cousins" club in the basement of a Greek Restaurant in 48 Greek Street (several sources give Frith Street instead) might have been named after the Claude Chabrol film of the same name (1959). It was formed about 1963-4. (http://renbourn.camhosts.net/sohoyears.htm) Everyone pronounced it as if it was was English, not French. Run by Alexis Korner, first resident was Noel Murphy (Who he? - http://www.tudorfolkclub.org.uk/tudarch_2003_1.htm)

Roy Harper was a resident (http://www.bbc.co.uk/berkshire/content/articles/2005/10/03/roy_harper_event_feature.shtml)

In November 2004 it was revived for a Nick Drake Tribute (http://www.martin-kingsbury.co.uk/articles/drake%20tribute.htm)

Roy Harper (album called "Live at Les Cousins 8/30/69" on "Blue Print". Originally released in 1996)

The "Spontaneous Music Ensemble" (John Stevens and Evan Parker plus Peter Koward) also recorded there in 1967 (http://www.emanemdisc.com/E4005.html)

There is a photograph of it here (http://sg.imess.net/greek.htm)

Also present: Andy Matthews, Sandy Denny, Jackson C Frank, Ralph McTell, Martin Carthy, Al Stewart, John Martyn, Linda Thompson, Julie Felix, Bridget St John, Alex Campbell, Ogg 12:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

See Les Cousins (music club) where I've made a start. Bluewave 17:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jan 2007 edit

I have done a slight re-edit of the article, based on the Colin Harper biography. Harper has researched the subjetc thoroughly and includes some 35 pages of notes and citations, so I am taking it is the most reliable source unless there is a good reason to doubt it. I have, for instance:

  • added mention of first marriage;
  • expanded section on the 80s and included mention of Jansch's drinking;
  • added mention of Avocet, which Jansch himself rates highly
  • and a few other corrections, additions and changes of emphasis.

Hope this has improved the article. Other views always welcome! Bluewave 11:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article rating

This article has been greatly improved and I have changed the guitarist page template to reflect that. Kudos to all editors who have worked on this article. I would recommend that you put it up for a GA review. Following the scutiny of that process I believe this article could be pushed up to FA status. Good luck! Cheers and take care! Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 14:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA nomination

Thanks to Anger22 for reviewing the article. As suggested, I have nominated it for GA review. Bluewave 15:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA candidacy on hold

I was very happy to read this article. I found it well-written and informative. However, I believe it should be placed on hold until the following issues are addressed:

  • Consider using {{Infobox musical artist}} instead of the guitarist infobox. Mr. Jansch is an influential guitarist, but he's also more than just a guitarist. Or, if the guitarist infobox must be used, then fill in the notable instruments field.
  • Great free-use image! However, all album-cover images need fair-use rationales.
  • Write some proper photo captions. Make them complete sentences. On the album covers, grab a notable fact about the album from the article and make it the caption. [Example: The debut album Bert Jansch was released in 1965 and went on to sell 150,000 copies.] If someone browsing the page was only reading the captions, they could still come away with some useful information.
  • Please see WP:MOS-T. Album titles are italicised, song titles should be in quotes.
  • Provide more wikilinks to technical musical terms like chord, sharp, flat and time signature.
  • Under partial discography, there's no need to say "Wikipedia article". All that's needed is this:
See also: Pentangle
  • The discography is neither very pretty nor easy to read. Maybe break that section into two columns. Italicise the album titles. Consider dropping the months from the release dates and try the years first, like this:
  • 1965 – Bert Jansch
  • 1965 – It Don't Bother Me
  • 1966 – Bert and John (with John Renbourn)
  • Has this article had a peer review? If not, consider withdrawing the GA nomination and putting it through the process. Or, while it's on hold, run it through the automated peer review, which can be found here. — WiseKwai 10:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits suggested by User:Wisekwai

Thanks for reviewing the article! OK, I've made a start.

  • Album title italicised, songs quoted — done.
  • "See also" changed as suggested. — done
  • Discography reformatted. Reformat as suggested (OK but I'm sorry to lose the months) — done.Bluewave 14:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Guitarist infobox. My inclination is to leave this. The rationale is that Jansch developed as a writer and musician through being primarily a guitarist. I don't think he would have made his original album or done the pioneering folk baroque work with Renbourn, or formed Pentangle, etc, without being noted as a gifted and innovative guitarist first. The plaudits from people like Jimmy Page and Neil Young seem to relate to his guitar work too (certainly I doubt if they refer to his singing!) In some ways, I would compare him with, say, Clapton, who also writes, sings, etc, but is first and foremost a guitarist (and has a guitarist infobox). I'll put in something about his guitars: he has long had a deal with Yamaha although he has used all sorts of guitars, particularly in the early days. His first album was reputedly recorded using a borrowed guitar. Harper's biography includes documentary evidence of at least one occasion when Jansch failed to turn up for a gig because he didn't manage to borrow a guitar (or the money for his travel costs)! Bluewave 15:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Added Yamaha to infobox — done
  • Fair use rational for pics — done
  • Captions for pics — done
  • Wikilinks. esp. musical terms — done Bluewave 16:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Now that you've explained the reasoning behind the guitarist infobox, I support that and can now see why it would be used for someone like Eric Clapton. — WiseKwai 19:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Automated peer review

Automated peer review, as suggested above, comes up with the following: The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

  • Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.[?]
  • Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.[?]
  • If this article is about a person, please add {{persondata|PLEASE SEE [[WP:PDATA]]!}} along with the required parameters to the article - see Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.[?]
  • Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally do not start with articles ('the', 'a(n)'). For example, if there was a section called ==The Biography==, it should be changed to ==Biography==.[?]
  • Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.[?]
  • Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), avoid using special characters (ex: &+{}[]) in headings.
  • Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
    • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
  • Avoid using contractions like: Don't, Don't.
  • As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2][?]
  • Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]

Bluewave 17:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

OK I've followed suggestions on dates, heading styles, and persondata. I've added a little more to the intro (which didn't mention that he recorded or toured. The robot doesn't like "It don't bother me" but that's an album title. It also objects to some of the placing of reference numbers, but I think this is only in cases where they have been very carefully placed in the text so that it is clear which fact they are referencing. There are some redundancies and vague terms but I haven't fixed those: I think that might call for a new editor! OK I reckon I've gone about as far as I can go with this! Bluewave 18:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review passed

This is my first GA-review. Having been through the GA process a couple of times, I felt compelled to help out. Since the suggestions I offered have been implemented, I believe this to be a good article. Good work by everyone involved. — WiseKwai 19:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the help in improving the quality of the article and for the GA rating. Cheers! Bluewave 19:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)