Talk:Berry

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[edit] Fruit or not?

I'm confused by this first sentence under Botany: "First of all berries are not fruit. In botany, the berry is the most common type of simple fleshy fruit; ..." Apsedona 19:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Berry and true berry

This part seems unclear

"Examples of berries are grape and tomato, but many other common fruits are considered true berries: The fruit of a citrus, like orange and lemon, is a modified berry termed a hisperidium. Date, avocado, persimmon, eggplant, guava, and red pepper are all berries to a botanist."

So what is the distinction between a berry and a true berry? are those fruits on the list at the bottom (date, avocado, etc) true berries, or just regular berries. What about the tomato and the grape? are they true berries? the introduction of the notion of true berry is unclear here. does it have any relationship to the layman's berries? (strawberry, raspberry, etc..)

Because the layman's berry is so far from a berry in a botanical sense, it is necessary to differentiate between the two. Use of the terminology "true" preceding anything usually indicates the scientific definition (sort of arrogant, I know, but that is what it means). Thus, a "true berry" is a "berry" as defined by botanists, and a layman's berry is—well, just a term for certain other fruits. Maybe can be made clearer? - Marshman 02:30, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

one of the unclear parts is "many other fruits are berries: like the modified berry, the lemon" (paraphrased). the colon in that sentence makes it seem like the article is going to list more examples of true berries, but instead it starts talking about modified berries. then after the sentence on the modified berry it lists the true berries. is a modified berry considered a true berry? i think so, but it's not clear.

what if it looked something more like this:

"Examples of true berries are the grape and the tomato, as well as many other common fruits: date, avocado, persimmon, eggplant, guava, and red pepper. The fruit of a citrus, like the orange and the lemon, is a modified berry called a hisperidium."

Here i have changed the order of the list of true berries with the description of a citrus as a modified berry, and changed the wording a little bit to make it seem more clear (to me, at least).

Although I would not bold "modified berry" since it is not really a term but just an adjective and a noun, your version is much better.- Marshman 17:10, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

and for the last paragraph:

"In common parlance and cuisine, the term "berry" refers to any small, sweet fruits; in this sense, a fruit which is not a berry at all in the botanical sense may be considered a culinary berry, such as the strawberry, whereas a botanists true berry need not be a culinary berry (for example, the tomato). Other culinary berries that are not botanical berries are blackberries, raspberries, gooseberries, blueberries, and boysenberries (some are false berries)"

or something that really makes clear that the strawberry is not a true berry nor even a false berry in the botanical sense. I would make the changes myself, but i'm not even sure if that is true. maybe the strawberry is a botanical false berry? maybe a modified berry really is a true berry?

what do you think?Lethe

Again, your version may be a bit wordy, but generally better than what is there now. I would leave out the parenthetical "some are false berries" as that is covered well in the 2nd paragraph. - Marshman 17:10, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Cranberries

What about cranberries? Anyone know where they fit? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.163.100.139 (talk • contribs) .

Cranberries are false berries because the fruit is derived from an inferior ovary. SCHZMO ✍ 23:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Presentation idea

What do people think about something like this table instead of the long lists within the article text?

Botanical parlance
True berry False berry Other
Common parlance Berry Grape Currant, cranberry, blueberry, gooseberry Strawberry, blackberry, raspberry, boysenberry
Other Tomato, date, avocado, persimmon, eggplant, guava, chile pepper Banana, cucumber, squash, pumpkin, melon, watermelon Apple, peach, green bean, sunflower seed


BTW, I'm not sure if I stand by the idea that the grape is a berry in common parlance, but surely that box of all of them shouldn't be empty! Right?

Pekinensis 17:52, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think your table is hot idea and should be used. Should the berry-true berry box be empty? Well, you've got a point that grape as "berry" is not common. But please go ahead with the table. Peace --Dpr 07:07, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Dpr - Marshman 18:58, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
The table looks great, but for botanical accuracy the "false berry" should be eliminated. There is botanically no such thing as a false berry. Berry is a broad category containing three subcategories: Hesperidium (*note spelling), Pepo, and True Berry. A "True Berry" is simply berry which does not fit into the specialized categories (i.e. Pepo & Hespiridium) - Botany103
So the fruits under the table listing as "false berry" are then what? - Marshman 04:00, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Could we say, "Other than a berry" or "Not a berry"? In botanical parlance, we would expect that should the item not be a Hesperidium, Pepo, or True Berry, then it could be accurately described as "not a berry." If you're searching for a single-word noun for this category, then we're outside of my circle of expertise (I'm not a botanist, but admire the field greatly).

If it is not a berry (and not a "false berry") then it need not be in the table in this article at all, an exception being fruits that are called berries but are not such by botanical definition (then I like your "Not a berry") - Marshman 18:52, 7 November 2005 (UTC)


I think I know what a berry is, but I'm confused after seeing this table. What on earth are apples etc. doing in there? If it is a space for just any "Other" then why not have (say) fern spores and eggs there as well? Imc 22:36, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I guess they just wanted to fill in the empty space for fruits that are neither vernacularly nor technically "berries". That could include tons of other fruits... SCHZMO ✍ 23:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


First, if you make any modifications to this table, make sure to modify it also at False berry. Second, I've used an Encarta article to try to answer some of the questions about what is and is not a true berry. This article has been added to external links. Accordingly, I've made the table into "True berry", "Pepos", "Hepsidiums" (hepsidiae?), "Not a berry". "Not a berry" is for fruit that might be considered a berry by some people, especially in common parlance, but is not botanically a berry. A few examples may be placed in the block for neither a berry in common parlance or botany, but this should be limited to a few examples (<3) and only of very common fruits. Using the same article, I was able to ascertain the classification of a few of these fruits, but not all. Ones I've ascertained: tomato, pepper, eggplant, grape, persimmon, cantaloupe, watermelon, pumpkin, cucumber, squash, orange, lemon, grapefruit, raspberry, strawberry, apple. Through other sources I also verified that cranberry, blueberry, and gooseberry are true berries (sources were sites ending in .gov or .edu, but were pretty obscure). Try Googling "true berry" site:.gov cranberry, or something similar. Also deleted all text regarding "false berries" from article. The article even referred to gooseberries as false berries, which was directly controverted by the linked reference. Bvbacon 21:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


The table as it currently is seems confusing to novice readers; I object to the use of the word parlance, and the wording of the table. 24.62.9.250 00:50, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Berries and drupes, single and multiple seeds

This article says that avocados are considered berries, but I was under the impression that the biological definition of a berry required that the fruit have multiple seeds, and that fruits like avocados, with one big seed in the middle, were considered drupes. Several sources I've found also seem to agree, including this online glossary. [1] So what makes the avocado a berry even though it has one large pit in the middle like a drupe??? Blackcats 23:56, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have some problems with the definitions at that website; berries typically do have multiple seeds, but that is not a requirement under the definition. However, an avacado cannot be a drupe because it has a single seed but not a "pit" (= a hard interior covering around the seed). I'm not so sure that it fits the definition of a berry real well either, but many fruits are hard to place in the various classification systems in use. - Marshman 23:17, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • An Avacado would be a berry, since its stone is on the inside - A pear would also be a berry for the same reason.

[edit] Berry or not!

YOu say in your article that A cucumber is not a berry, this is wrong since Cucumbers are berries.

Also Watermelons are berries as are banana's, tomatoes, kiwi fruit, grapes, apples, anything that contains its seeds on the inside rather than the outside, which is why, as we all know, a stawberry is not a berry, because its seeds are on the outside.


I think you should correct this article

James Random 11:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Seems like some of your mentions are botanically considered "false" berries. The distinguishing factor being an inferior versus a superior ovary. In the case of false berries, the fruit is not developed entirely from the tissues of the ovary. Strawberries, in-fact, are not considered berries because the true fruits of the strawberry plant in the botanical sense are the seeds, not because the seeds are on the outside.--Shadowdrak 06:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Strawberries and Blackberries

The article says 'In this sense, the tomato is a berry and the strawberry is not' yet it places the strawberry as a true berry on the table. Also, below the picture it says 'Several types of "berries" from the market, but of those shown, only blueberries are true berries.' The picture include stawberries and blackberries, both of which are listed as true berries on the table.

Which of these pieces of information is correct?--Jcvamp 13:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Somebody screwed up the table a few days ago, either by accident or as vandalism--I've reverted the page to fix it so hopefully it will make more sense now. I would question the value of such tables, as they are a bit hard to interpret and are so easily messed up by uncareful editing (this is not the first time I've had to fix one). MrDarwin 14:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

That looks better. The issue seems to be a bit complicated, and the pages on pepos and hesperidiums, as well as the List of fruits page just add to the confusion.--Jcvamp 15:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] white berry

Isn't there a white. I mean, I dont think it edible , I think poison ivy has white berries. "THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 04:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

GREYBERRIES The bottom section about greyberries is hardly what I would call unbiased. I will change it.

[edit] pepo

the berry chart here and at the article on pepoes don't match. I don't know enough to fix them, just pointing that out.--66.102.196.43 01:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cherry

Can cherry please be added in the table (in either the "berry" or "not a berry" category)? Badagnani 03:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Cherry should be easy, it's a drupe, so "not a berry" in either parlance. Added. Meggar 05:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guavaberry

Can guavaberry please be added in the table (in either the "berry" or "not a berry" category)? Badagnani 03:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Split

The article mix botanical sense (berry: tomato, grapes...) with cuisine (fruits of the forest: cherries, strawberries...). Both concepts are really different and shouldn't be mixed.

I think that if the article is to be split, it should be split into 'Berry (botanical)' and 'Berry (cullinary)'. I wouldn't class all of the cullinary berries as 'fruits of the forest'.--Jcvamp (talk) 00:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)