Talk:Bergen County, New Jersey

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Bergen County, New Jersey is part of WikiProject New Jersey, an effort to create, expand, and improve New Jersey–related articles to Wikipedia feature-quality standard.

Bulletin: The next New York City meetup is Sunday June 1st.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.
Bergen County, New Jersey was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: December 14, 2006

Contents

[edit] Bad formatting

Can someone with better wiki knowledge please fix the horrible formatting of the section breaks? There's presently a bunch of edit links in a row, each corresponding to a different section of the document. It's screaming for help. :) Shigpit 17:12, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Can you give a more specific example of the formatting issue? I'd be more than happy to work on the problem. Alansohn 17:27, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Thanks Alansohn. The chapter headers don't have individual edit buttons in serial with their separator bars. I scroll down the page, and there are four [edit] links next to each other -- it seems this is occurring because of the way the pictures were placed. I'm using Firefox 1.5 if that helps you understand what I'm looking at. Shigpit 11:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
    • This happens when there are several images in a row aligned on the right side. I'm not sure if it is a CSS error or a rendering problem. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 17:17, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bad link

I'm a complete novice and could not figure out how to fix a bad link I found on this page: (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Bergen_County,_New_Jersey)

The shorcut that is supposed to link to the Bergen County Map from 1918 is trying to find the non-existent 1819 map (http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/BERGEN_COUNTY/BergenCounty_1819.jpg). A simple transposition, but I can't find the link nor the surrounding text at "edit this article at Wikipedia.org".

To the next skilled person that reads this: could you change the link behind "1918" under the "Historic maps of Bergen County, courtesy Rutgers Collection" heading to "http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/BERGEN_COUNTY/BergenCounty_1918.jpg". This shortcut DOES go to the correct page.

John Freund Ridgefield Park, NJ organguy@biggerthanabreadbox.com

John, thanks for the note. reference.com contains an outdated snapshot of Wikipedia articles. The link to Rutgers no longer exists in the current version of the article. Instead, the map was uploaded to the Wikimedia Commons since it is in the public domain (published before 1923, therefore copyright expired). For the image, see here: Image:BergenCounty 1918.jpg. For the most-up-to-date version of Wikipedia articles, be sure to use the real page at http://en.wikipedia.org/ . Cheers. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 16:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] founding of Bergen County?

The article says the founding date of the county is 1675. The county seal shows 1683. Which is correct? --ChrisRuvolo (t) 19:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I had never noticed the discrepancy, but I've seen both dates. An article describes the scenario that "In 1675 Bergen was included in a judicial district with Essex, Monmouth, and Middlesex counties. Later in 1683, Bergen was recognized as a county by the Provincial Assembly". I guess that would make the 1683 date the most reliable as the date of formation. I will change accordingly. Alansohn 01:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Awesome, thanks. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 02:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blue Law section

A wiki should be filled with facts, not opinions or subjective statements. In the Blue Laws section of the Bergen Co wiki, Alansohn of Teaneck insists on keeping this text intact:

"It has produced the ironic situation that one of the largest and most popular commercial shopping cores of the New York metropolitan area is almost completely closed on Sunday (grocery stores are allowed to operate). Furthermore, Bergen County has significant Jewish and Muslim populations whose observant members would not be celebrating their Sabbath on Sunday with most of their Christian neighbors. The substantial Orthodox Jewish minority is placed in the position of being unable to shop either on Sunday (due to the blue laws) or on Saturday (due to religious observance)."

It is not necessary to include this text. The "blue laws" link provides all the essential information, including the fact this day "coincides with the Christian Sabbath". In fact, I believe this is more of an objective than a factual statement. In addition, it is not completely accurate. I have not seen a "substantial" jewish orthodox nor muslim population in Bergen Co.

  • The information that I insist on keeping is specifically relevant to Bergen County. Blue Laws provide a mix of benefits and burdens. For those who don't observe any religiously-derived day of rest, the benefit of a day off from shopping may very well exceed the loss of a day of shopiing for most such people. For those who do a keep a day of rest on Sunday (mostly Christians) there would seem to be no burdens imposed whatsoever. For those who keep a day of rest on a day other than Sunday -- mostly Muslims (Friday), Orthodox Jews and adherents of certain Christian demoninations (Saturday) -- the enforcement of a "secular" day of rest on Sunday means that there are two days each week when they are forbidden to engage in commerce, a substatntial burden on adherents of those faiths. I am unsure of your familiarity with either Bergen County or Wikipedia; the fact that your only two edits were an unexplained removal of text from the Bergen County article and your post here on this talk page does not provide any context for your background or participation, so let me provide some information. Teaneck (my hometown, as you feel the need to point out) has an Orthodox Jewish population of approximately 4-5,000. Englewood and Fair Lawn also have Orthodox populations of a few thousand each. Fort Lee, Bergenfield, New Milford and Paramus are among communities with Orthodox communities of several hundred to a few thousand individuals. Teaneck is home to two mosques and others are in Englewood and elsewhere around the county. Teaneck has one of a number of Seventh Day Adventist churches, whose adherents observe their Sabbath on Saturday. You can pick your definition for "substantial" -- "fairly large", "having a firm basis in reality and being therefore important, meaningful, or considerable" or "having substance or capable of being treated as fact; not imaginary" -- any of which would indicate that there truly are "substantial" numbers of individuals in Bergen County who not only observe their own day of rest, but are also burdened with being forced to observe another day of rest on Sunday, whose "secular" purpose is firmly rooted in historical efforts to enforce the Christian Sunday day of rest. As such, I believe that there is ample justification to keep this objective information in the Bergen County article. If you haven't seen any of members of Bergen County's Orthodox Jewish community, join me for a lunch of pastrami on rye at Noah's Ark on Cedar Lane in Teaneck, which has about a dozen kosher dining establishments alone, and I'll point out a few. Alansohn 19:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


>I've lived in Bergen Co. for 40+ years. In the past I have resided in Teaneck and Fort Lee; currently in Hillsdale. I am well aware of the demographics of the communities you mention and probably every other in Bergen. I don't profess to be a scholar of Bergen, but I do know what goes on in the county. I am an engineer and have developed products for internetworking and the Internet since the early 80's so I am very familiar with various web technologies. I have only two edits (3 now) because I usually don't rely on wiki's for my information. They tend to provide false or inaccurate data. I just read an article that claimed the entropy of wiki's will reach a level at which point they will contain zero information (entropy by definition). I found it humorous - and now true. I happened to use this wiki for a quick lookup for some Bergen freeholder names. I saw the blue law section and changed it due to inaccurate statements. I do acknowledge there is an Orthodox Jewish community, as well as a growing Muslim community in Bergen Co. I have Orthodox Jew friends. However, I wouldn't say their numbers are substantial, unless you're located in an area where there is a concentration. For example, a person of Croatian descent may think there is a substantial Croatian population if they live in the area of South Eastern Fort Lee, Palisades Park, and parts of Cliffside/Fairview. However, this isn't true for most of Bergen. Typically substantial indicates a significant amount in numbers, relative to the whole. Therefore, I believe the blue laws section is inaccurate in it's "substantial" statement. Plus, adding the fact that it's an inconvenience to some people is more commentary and subjective in nature than a general purpose fact. Something I thought was inappropriate for a wiki (once again, increasing entropy means decreasing factual information). It's a blue law, no further commentary is needed. Mostly everyone knows what that is (if not, follow the link). Pastrami on rye sounds good. As a kid I recall shopping on Cedar Lane, going to deli's, Bischoff's, and Butterflake. Haven't been there in quite some time.

[edit] Good Article candidacy

I haven,t really read the article in a while, but it looks good to me. I'd love to get feedback on additional improvements that could be made. Furthermore, Bergen County has a thoroughly updated set of articles for the 70 municipalities, almost all of the 70+ school districts, and the overwhelming majority of high schools. Alansohn 04:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, even if it doesn't pass, I still think this will be a valuable exercise for the feedback we get. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 04:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Failed

Further to the WP:GA nomination, this article does not pass WP:WIAGA criteria 1. b), c) 2. a) & 4. b).

Referencing is the most outstanding issue; "The substantial Orthodox Jewish minority is placed in the position of being unable to shop either on Sunday (due to the blue laws) or on Saturday (due to religious observance)" and other such comments, are designated as needing referencing and either should be or reworded.

There are other minor formatting issues; the History section contains multiple dates, facts and figures which need sources, and the Points of interest section would benefit from being a little less linked and converted from a long list, into either a table or normal prose. Per WP:LEAD, the opening section at one paragraph is too short also.

Consider expanding parts of the History section, especially more of the early history of Bergen County - Who were its first settlers (were they European/Native-American)? Why was it named Bergen County? Also this section in its current form reads like a list of facts, and would benefit from some referencing and collaboration from the editing community who take an interest in this article.

I should add this article is actually not far from GA status and is otherwise excellent (pictures, context, writing style etc). For high quality feedback to take this article forward however, visit Wikipedia:Peer review and follow instructions. Hope that helps, best of luck. Jhamez84 14:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


Thank you for the feedback, we will work on this. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 15:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
My thanks for the pointers, as well. I have already addressed the first comment re Blue Laws, copyediting the text and providing additional sources for the causes and effects of Bergen County's blue laws and their effects on portions of the population. Let's discuss possible enhancements to teh other sections addressed regarding achieving GA status. Alansohn 15:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


Though this discussion took place in Dec 2006 when article failed GA candidate, I'd like to mention a few things that would perhaps improve the article: 1. Placement of municpalities would seem to be better earlier in article. 2. History section could come later in article, namely after the basic information sections such as geography, municipalities, demographics, etc and start somewhere before the Brtish era, ie the Lenape/New Netherland period. 3. Cultural/entertainment section seems a bit thin and inconclusive. Performing arts seems underpresented for a county where music, theatre, and dance play an important roles to the cultural life of many of it's citizens 4. Images are almost exclusively of historical maps, which are interesting to many (me, included), but do not include others that would give a better visual picture of the county: how about pictures of the Hackensack, the GWB, or one of the many shopping malls (which are discussed at length)? 5. An explanation of the topography and the diversity of the landscape, and how it has influenced the development of the county with its more city-like east, Meadowlands towns, posh northern suburbs, the urban sprawl, etc would create a more interesting picture of the place

I would add that I won't make these changes, as I feel BC article can (perhaps) be better written by somewhere who lives in the county, and writing and style don't seem to be the issues. (I have been working on Hudson article later, and would appreciate feedback on that)Djflem 10:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] County name origins?

It seems that Bergen County was named for the community of Bergen in what is now Hudson County. But where did that name come from? List of New Jersey county name etymologies (citing [1]) suggests either Bergen-op-Zoom, the Netherlands or Bergen, Norway. However, there are two other locations in the Netherlands with the name Bergen: Bergen, North Holland and Bergen (Limburg). Do we know where the name really comes from? Alan, does the Westervelt book provide any insight? Thanks. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 18:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Chris, I'll add this one to my list. I have a another interesting book, "The Story of New Jersey's Civil Boundaries: 1606-1968", John P. Snyder, Bureau of Geology and Topography; Trenton, New Jersey; 1969, which goes through the creation of all counties and municipalities in the state. It has nothing on the sources of names, but it is a most useful source. Alansohn 18:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The name of Bergen County comes from one of the earliest settlers of Nieuw Amsterdam (New York City), Hans Hansen Bergen, who arrived in New York from Bergen, Norway. The Bergen Family, Teunis G. Bergen, 1876 MarmadukePercy (talk) 19:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Marmaduke, can you clarify which page says this? I don't see it. The closest thing I found was here: [2] (pages 202-203) which says:
The [Bergen] family was established in this country by Hans Hansen [Bergen] about 1660. He owned much of the territory in New Jersey adjacent to the Hudson river, now Bergen county, "Bergen Point," the name being perpetuated also in Bergen Heights of Brooklyn. The family came originally from Bergen, Norway, but to this country from Holland. They were influential in the early history of New Amsterdam.
I think this means that both Bergen Point (southern tip of Bayonne) and Bergen County are named for him, but the wording seems ambiguous. It would also suggest that Bergen Township, Bergen County, New Jersey (Historical 1683) is named for him. But why is this only mentioned in this one source? Also, Djflem (t c) raises some good points at Talk:Bergen Township, Bergen County, New Jersey (Historical 1683). I think we will have to re-work the current text to acknowledge that there is a debate to the name origin. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 21:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Another source, [3] (pages 70-71, footnote) shows several possible sources of the name, and does not include Hans Hansen Bergen among them. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 21:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The Teunis Bergen volume gives a largely accurate account of the Bergen family, who had many descendants through intermarriage with other prominent early New York-New Jersey families, like the Hoaglands (originally Hoogland), Bogarts (that of Humphrey), etc.[4] I don't speak Dutch, but the results I get from a English-to-Dutch online dictionary is that the Dutch word for 'mountain' is 'berg.' The Bergen family of Mercer County, N.J., are direct descendants of Hans Hansen Bergen.[5] As I understand it (and this is family history) the name of Bergen County, N.J., also derives from Hans Hansen. I believe I have some books in my library which will confirm this, and barring that, I'll search for it on google books. Regards to all of you. This is an interesting discussion.MarmadukePercy (talk) 22:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
These folks most assuredly have the answer.Holland Society of New York MarmadukePercy (talk) 22:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
This source points to what I believe is correct: that Bergen County is named for Hans Hansen Bergen.[6] Nevertheless, I will look for more confirmation as well.MarmadukePercy (talk) 23:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
In any case, there are certainly more sources than one which point to the derivation of the Bergen County name being Hans Hansen Bergen.MarmadukePercy (talk) 01:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I have created an entry for Jacques Cortelyou, the surveyor who laid out the first town of Bergen, as well as investing in it. Hopefully this will help us narrow the search for the origin of the name Bergen.Regards,MarmadukePercy (talk) 04:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I added that new source to the article, thanks. Also, regarding timelines.. the foundation of the Bergen settlement has been given as 1660 or 1661. The arrival of Hans Hansen Bergen to New Amsterdam was given as 1663. So unless it was named for him afterwards, the timeline doesn't match up. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 15:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
That's great. As for Hans Hansen Bergen, he arrived in New Amsterdam in 1633, many years before the founding of Bergen.[7] Regards,MarmadukePercy (talk) 16:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC) Incidentally, this mystery about the naming of Bergen may never be fully solved, given that Cortelyou's original plan and the list of patentees is lost. The folks who probably who have the answer (if anyone does) are probably the Holland Society. I will endeavor to have the question put to someone there, although it may take awhile. Thanks for your help with this interesting topic.Regards,MarmadukePercy (talk) 16:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Whoops, my mistake. Let us know what you find. Thanks. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 22:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Will do. Have you had a chance to have a look at the book "The Island at the Center of the World: The Epic Story of Dutch Manhattan & The Forgotten Colony that Shaped America," by Russell Shorto? Shorto writes for the NYTimes Sunday magazine, and although the book won't clear up any mysteries about Bergen, it sure is a good read and I think you'd enjoy it.MarmadukePercy (talk) 00:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
No, I haven't seen it. I'll put it on my list, thanks. BTW, the topic of the name origin was being discussed at the Bergen County Historical Society web forum, and Hans Hansen was not mentioned until I introduced his name. So far no conclusions. See here: [8]. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 21:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
You'll enjoy the book. Shorto is a masterful writer. In it, he mentions that Joris Jansen Rapalje's oldest daughter married the overseer of a tobacco plantation on land that is today's Greenwich Village. (This was Hans Hansen Bergen.) But there is little in Shorto's book to clear up the mystery about Bergen County. But if you enjoy a ripping read and early New Amsterdam history, this is the book for you. Thanks also for posting about the forum. The mystery deepens..... Regards,MarmadukePercy (talk) 22:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Incidentally, Joris Jansen Rapalje, whose daughter Sarah married Bergen, was one of the so-called Twelve Men who represented Manhattan, Breukelen and Pavonia (first settlement in New Jersey), who were elected to come up with a fitting punishment for the Native Americans who had been accused of a murder. Rapalje would later go on to serve as one of magistrates of Brooklyn.[9]MarmadukePercy (talk) 22:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)