Talk:Bereza Kartuska prison

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Contents

[edit] Possible expansion from Idzio

Viktor Idzio (Ідзьо) in his book: Ukrainska Povstanska Armiya - zhidno zi svidchennia nimetskykh ta radianskykh arkhiviv - Lviv, 2005 ISBN 966-665-268-4

writes: p.6 As we can see from Soviet documents (neutral with regard to describing the activities of the OUN), after the murder by members of the OUN of the minister of internal affairs of Poland B. Piernatsky, what left the greatest stain in the genocide of the Ukrainian people, at the instigation of the president I. Mostsitsky from 17 July 1934 first in Poland, long before the fascist concentration camps) The Poles in this question can be regarded as the teachers of the Fascists)) there was formed a concentration camp for Ukrainian political prisoners. The direct responsibility for the establishment of the concentration camp was the Polish Voyevoda K. Biernacki, who contemporaries characterise as "a fearful sadist, who was not mentally normal". The place for the camp became the town of Bereza Kartuzka in Belarus. The concentration camp was surrounded with barbed wire, trenches - just like in the German Fascists would in the future.

The first prisoner of the camp 17 july 1934 became the activists of the Organization of Ukrainiannnationalists: R. Shukhevych, D. Hrytsai, V. Yaniv. The German Fascists copied the the Polish model and transfered it for their own needs in sadism and terror, so we shall briefly characterise European (because there are still the Bolsheviks) - Polish teachers of the "Concentration camp" movement.

As can be seen from documents, one can see two phases in the functioning of the Polish concentration camp of Bereza Kartuzka. The first falls on 1934-1937, Ukrainians among the political prisoners, by official statistics 176 men, and by unofficial statistics from Polish sources, murdered or tortured to death during questioning, died from disease, during escape, or disappeared without trace etc - 324 Ukrainians , mainly members of OUN.

AT the beginning of 1938, when the OUN in Poland became stronger, the Polish government without appelation sent 4500 Ukrainians to Bereza Kartuzka.

The first commandant of the concentration camp was Hrefner, and from January 1935 - Ju. Kamal. The Polish authorities were not patient with the Ukrainians, as in the German Concentration camps. A comparative analysis of sources gives us the right to underline, that the the Ukrainians in the concentration camps of the Germans were treated more humanely, than in the Polish camp of Bereza Kartuzka. As has been related by the members of the OUN who testified: Beatings (they would place boards to the backs and hit them with hammers), the forced labour, in order to break character, and the constant harasment, without provocation - solitary confinement, the banning of the use of Ukrainian language amongst the inmates etc. Each of the cells held 40 inmates, and did not have benches, tables and the floors were of concrete. So that the inmates would not sit, the floor was showered with water. After release from the camp the Ukrainians had the health destroyed or just died. T. Bulba-Borovetz, the otaman of the UIA "earned" as a result of his stay in Bereza Kartuzka epilepsy.

Anyway, rather than put this information into the article, I thought it might be prudent to discuss the information first, rather than butchering an article that to me has been finely crafted.

Recently there has been a documentary film made of Bereza Kartuzka by Yuri Luhovy from Montreal. The Ukrainian version has been released. The English version is currently being finished. Bandurist (talk) 12:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

This passage certainly contains some useful information (such as names). The piece however seems rather biased. First, to characterize situation of Ukrainians in Second Polish Republic as genocide is completly wrong. Second, the camp was as much a precursor of Nazi concentration camps as hundreds of similar prisons and internment camps all over the world; the comparison is evidently made in bad faith (need I remind that the total number of death in Beraza was under a dozen... to compare it to the Nazi - or Soviet - death factories is a simply offensive for the victims of the latter. That said, the current article lacks inline cites, and while the above translation is not clear, Idzio states that the death toll may be as high as 174 or 324 (not that it again is anywhere close the the Nazis or Soviet death tolls). But again, to state "the Ukrainians in the concentration camps of the Germans were treated more humanely" sounds extremly controversial to me. Last question: what are the academic credentials of Viktor Idzio and are there any reviews of this book (or other works) available? Due to high amount of controversial material, the source strikes me as possibly nationalistic - a Ukrainian counterpart of Wiktor Poliszczuk. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree with a lot that you have written. I also would like to say how much I enjoy having the discussion and the manner in which we are having it. The peice does sound somewhat baised. It is taken from the introduction of a book of reproductions of archival Materials Idzio found in Moscow. I shall scan the rest of the book and see what else is interesting and pertinant. The death toll is larger. What are the parameters I cannot say. Did they all die in camp, or did they die as a result of their beatings in camp etc. The numbers obviously do not correspeond with th ePolish numbers, but from what I have read, all the documents regarding the camp are in the City Archive of Brest except for a small section regarding the detention of Germans in 1939. The Russians seemed to have access to original reliable materials.

Your comment re Germans treated the Ukrainians better also is also on the mark, but still it is hard to say. Some of the inmates of Bereza wound up in Sachsenhausen where the Germans apparently treated them better than the Poles.

Viktor Idzio is the Rector of the Ukrainian University in Moscow, He is a credible source. I met up with him in Crimea and had lunch with him in Yalta at a conference in 2005 where he gave me a copy of the book. His main work is publishing archival materials from Soviet and Russian sources which he has gotten access to in Moscow. Most of his work is published in Moscow and doesn't make the rounds of Ukraine. This is one of the first books published and geared towards West Ukraine. I am unaware of reviews of the book.Bandurist (talk) 22:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Might the name "D. Hrytsai" be a misspelling of "Hrytsak," with a "k"? Does anyone know what given name "D." was the initial of? Nihil novi (talk) 20:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe. Maybe I did a typo. I will check when I get home. Bandurist (talk) 22:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
No its Hrytsai in the book. Bandurist (talk) 04:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for checking. Nihil novi (talk) 04:54, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More sources

where thousands of Ukrainian patriots were incarcerated without due process and in direct violation of the Polish Constitution is little known. Yurij Luhovy, a member of the Academy of Canadian Cinema and Television, is now close to completing a documentary film about this camp, a film based on authentic photographs, documents, archival footage, and eyewitness testimonials from survivors.

We were never certain of the reason. None was ever given. Ukrainians were arrested by the Polish police "bez prava zakhystu," without the right of a defense. This was illegal, of course, even under Polish law, but it was done anyway. My father had just finished law school in Ternopil and had just married my mother. They decided to settle in Brody; the year was 1938. He was supposed to work for two years under a lawyer for no pay. However, to survive they opened a fruit store. Nearby, a Polish man also had one, and he saw his business dwindling. My mother always thought that the reason for the denunciation of my father was this person's jealousy. One day my mother came to the store to bring my father some lunch but he was not there. The neighbors said that my father was arrested and taken to the Bereza Kartuzka concentration camp. This happened in June or July of 1939. That day about 17 other people from Brody alone were arrested and imprisoned.

Towards 1939 the majority were Ukrainians. In 1934 the population of the camp was about 250 people, but by September 1939 there were between 5,000 and 8,000 people, the majority of whom were Ukrainians. Just imagine the conditions, too. They used to sleep about 15 to a room when the camp first opened in 1934 but towards the end it was between 60 and 70 men to a room.

http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2003/020325.shtml

Award-winning Montreal filmmaker Yurij Luhovy was completing a film about Bereza Kartuzka, the site between 1933 and 1939, of an infamous Polish concentration camp under the command of Col. Yanush Kostek-Biernacki where hundreds of Ukrainian patriots were incarcerated. Mr. Luhovy was interviewed for The Weekly (February 3) by Fran Ponomarenko. The film, the first part of a trilogy dealing with Ukraine under three occupations - Polish, Communist and Nazi - highlights the political situation in which Western Ukrainians found themselves under Polish rule between the two world wars.

Stuff to consider Bandurist (talk) 16:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It is certainly interesting to see more material on this. Nonetheless I'd note that documentaries are not as reliable as academic works. And the director obviously is not neutral. It would be interesting to verify the claim that Ukrainians formed majority of the internees. PS. "We were never certain of the reason. None was ever given. Ukrainians were arrested by the Polish police..." - perhaps the OUN and its campaign of assassinations and such might be one of the reasons...? Both sides were guilty or escalating the hostilities; I certainly hope he doesn't ignore that and tries to paint a black and white picture.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
You are certainly right about documentaries. In order to let the audience get a better understanding of certain things often the wrong photosd or materials are used. This happened with the Holod film {{Harvest of Despair]] where photos from the 1923 famine in the Volga were incorporated and made to look like it happened in Ukraine. This caused a lot of problems later when it was brought to the attention of School Boards and Television stations. Mr Luhovy if I remember correctly was involved with that film. Hopefully this is not the case here. Bandurist (talk) 22:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More to consider

I guess that there will be much more interest in this topic now that the film is making an impact. The Ukrainian Encyclopedias are very sparse regarding the subject, but the books are beginning to have a lot of information - but sort it out.

To me it seems that initially the camp was initially an internment camp with a small number of inmates and which evolved in approximately 1938 to something quite horrible with cramped conditions where the food was substandard and torture was used. I am not a specialist in this area, but with the flood of inquirees that I can see coming some of these questions should be addressed before hand.

Things were difficult at that time, paticularly with regard to Ukrainians. I know that the Poles are very finicky about the subject of Nazi concentration camps on their territory and precise wording and descriptions.

I do know that when the Germans came and released the Ukrainians from Bereza some 800-900 enlisted in the Wehrmacht to join the Nachtigall and Roland divisions. Bandurist (talk) 19:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

See also Polish concentration camps.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Motion to rename to Concentration camp

If you read the description of what a concentration camp is, the camp fits this description. See Internment

Use of the word concentration comes from the idea of concentrating a group of people who are in some way undesirable in one place, where they can be watched by those who incarcerated them. For example, in a time of insurgency, potential supporters of the insurgents are placed where they cannot provide them with supplies or information.

The term concentration camp lost some of its original meaning after Nazi concentration camps were discovered, and has ever since been understood to refer to a place of mistreatment, starvation, forced labour, and murder. The expression since then has only been used in this extremely pejorative sense; no government or organization has used it to describe its own facilities, using instead terms such as internment camp, resettlement camp, detention facility, etc, regardless of the actual circumstances of the camp, which can vary a great deal.

In all Ukrainian and Russian sources I have looked at these past days it is so described. The memoirs of Ukrainians who were interred there also fits this description. It is understood that in the 30'sd it was not referred to as such in Polish sources but it does fit the description.

I propose that the article be renamed to reflect that it was a concentration camp.

I think that the chronology should be divided setting out 1938 and 1939 separately when things drastically changed and 5000 guys were crammed into the facility. Also it maybe prudent to include a section on the internal culture of the camp. It looks like it was almost like a school for fostering anti-Polish sentiment and ideas amongst the inmates.Bandurist (talk) 12:23, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Richard M. Watt, in Bitter Glory: Poland and Its Fate, 1918 to 1939 (New York, Simon and Schuster, 1979, pp. 301-2) does call the Bereza Kartuska camp a "concentration camp." I wonder whether, given the various phases of the camp's history and the varied connotations of the expression "concentration camp," one might better call it "Bereza Kartuska Camp"?
Watt writes:
"There were a few other trials of persons accused of one sort of anti-government activity or another during this period, but none resulted in a long sentence, although in 1934 the government established a concentration camp for political prisoners at Bereza Kartuska near the eastern border of Poland.
"In fairness, it must be said that the Piłsudski government's repressive actions toward its opponents were not very extensive nor very violent. The Bereza Kartuska concentration camp was opened only after a Ukrainian terrorist assassinated the Polish minister of the interior on June 15, 1934. The total number of people who passed through the concentration camp during the five years of its existence did not exceed five hundred – and most of these were either Ukrainian nationalists or currency-exchange offenders against whom the government may well have had fairly strong cases, but cases that could not be proved in court. Although the Piłsudski regime had certainly become authoritarian, its counteropposition activities could not be compared to those of many other European governments during this decade of emerging fascism. The government's enemies were not often persecuted; they were just ignored and reduced to the role of bystanders in the political process.
"In fact, Piłsudski regarded fascism as a menace and some of his government's most immoderate attacks were directed against it. These antifascist moves came to a head in 1934, when the government dissolved several crypto-fascist parties that had arisen out of the Right-wing National Democratic Party. One of these groups, the National Radical Camp (ONR), patterned itself closely after the German Nazis, complete with anti-Semitic extremism. Perhaps because of the frustrations caused by the Depression, these fascist-type parties quickly developed a following among Polish university students, most of whom were very conservative. But in 1934, the Piłsudski government moved against these groups. It declared them illegal and flung some of the ONR leaders into the concentration camp at Bereza Kartuska. This did not do away with fascism in Poland, however. Nor did it eliminate anti-Semitism. But for the time being, it eliminated any openly fascist activities from the Polish political scene." Nihil novi (talk) 21:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Interesting stuff. On the one hand you havemoderation and ettiquette, but on the other hand the picture being painted by the Ukrainians is somewhat different I'm getting the feeling that the whole truth is still not out there. The numbers for almost everything are different in every source.
My interpretation is bending towards what the Russians and Ukrainians are saying. To me Watt seems to not have had access to Ukrainian testimonies and materials. From what I have read, the bulk of the inmates were Ukrainian. (My estimate from what I have read is about 80%) Some were members of OUN but a percentage of these were communists and even some non-nationalists, people who stubbornly supported the Orthodox church. Polish sources however tend to focus more on Polish opponents to the regime.
Aparently the archives of the camp, all the documents are currently in the Brest City Archives. Bandurist (talk) 21:56, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
If credible, objective information exists on torture of inmates at the Bereza Kartuska camp, Ukrainians or otherwise, the salient points should be included in the article. (Before and during World War II, torture and murder were at times used by both Poles and Ukrainians.) Nihil novi (talk) 22:31, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Which article informs about anti-terrorist repressions both in pre-war Poland and SU? Numbers of imprisoned, killed? There is no gulag camps list here, no names of Ukrainian prisoners. Probably the only article mentioning Ukrainians is Kengir uprising. Xx236 (talk) 08:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] disputed location

In the article the camp was a "former tsarist barracks" but some sources say it was a former Russian monastery. [1] What is correct? Ostap (talk) 01:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The Wikipedia "Biaroza" article states that after the November 1830 Uprising the Carthusian monastery (which gave the town half of its Polish name, Bereza Kartuska) was closed by Tsarist authorities and in 1866, after the January 1863 Uprising, the whole complex was partly demolished and the bricks were used to construct a Russian prison and barracks. Nihil novi (talk) 02:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I see. That clears is up. Thanks. Ostap (talk) 03:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
It was a common practice for Russian Empire to turn Catholic monasteries and such into barracks or magazines.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Illustrations

I have a hand drawn map of the Camp and its location in Ukrainian and also some crappy touristy photos of the camp. Are they worth while putting up? Bandurist (talk) 13:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Put them in, and let's see. Nihil novi (talk) 22:12, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Of course. I'd suggest creating a Wikimedia Commons category for it if there isn't one already.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

[edit] Requested move

The name Bereza Kartuska Concentration Camp is a Library of Congress subject heading - see [2]. This is confirmed by a Google book search that shows many more hits on Bereza Kartuska concentration camp [3] than on Bereza Kartuska detention camp [4]. Novickas (talk) 16:44, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Google Books shows "concentration camp" 135, "detention camp" 7, "camp" 200.
However, if a consensus can be shown among serious, objective historians for "concentration camp," then let's "call a spade a spade"! Nihil novi (talk) 23:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
The 200 results for camp in Google Book search listed above did not exclude the word "concentration". There are other phrasings such as "a concentration camp was established at Bereza Kartuska", which would not show up on an exact quoted search on "Bereza Kartuska concentration camp". A search on bereza kartuska camp concentration -jews [5] yields 74 results. A search on bereza kartuska camp -jews -concentration [6] yields 39 results. Novickas (talk) 16:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Oppose the most popular name is simply Bereza Camp, also the popular meaning of the word concentration camp is associated with facilities that served different role in WW2.--Molobo (talk) 22:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. As I have explained earlier (this is the same line of reasoning Nihil Novi used above), the concentration camp is as correct as interment or detetion camp - but is is problematic due to WP:NPOV. The camp has also been called a prison, too. Therefore I see no reason to move it to the most controversial name, although I would support a move to Bereza Kartuska Internment Camp, which may be more correct than current one. PS. Some numbers from Google Print: BK Detention Camp - 1 ([7]), Detention Camp in Beraza - 1 ([8]), BK Internment Camp - 1 ([9]), B Internment Camp - 1 ([10]), Internment Camp in Beraza - 1 ([11]), BK Concentration Camp - 23 ([12]), Beraza Concentration Camp - 6 ([13]), Concentration Camp in Beraza - 7 ([14]), BK Camp - 1 ([15]), B Camp - 6 ([16]), BK Prison - 1 ([17]), B Prison - 5 ([18]).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Strong words in article titles are not prohibited. From Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events): Article names for current and historical events are often controversial. In particular, the use of strong words such as "massacre" can be a focus of heated debate. The use of particular strong words is neither universally encouraged nor discouraged. The spirit of these guidelines is to favour familiar terms used to identify the event. Rules to select a name should be applied in the following sequence: 1) If there is a particular common name for the event, it should be used even if it implies a controversial point of view. 2) If there is no common name for the event, and there is a generally accepted word used when identifying the event, the title should include the word even if it is a strong one such as "massacre" or "genocide" or "war crime". However, to keep article names short, avoid including more words than are necessary to identify the event. For example, the adjective "terrorist" is usually not needed. 3) If there is no common name for the event and no generally accepted descriptive word, use a descriptive name that does not carry POV implications.
Further on in this article is the statement "A generally accepted word is a word for which there is consensus, among scholars in the real world, on its applicability to the event." The Library of Congress' choice of "concentration camp" as a subject heading is a serious consensus, apart from its use by Harvard, Timothy Snyder, etc. Novickas (talk) 16:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Further, Piotrus' arguing against "controversial" and "strong" words in the titles is rather selective. He has no problems with various massacres, occupations, invasions, etc when those are "of Poland". When committed by Poland we strangely get him arguing against such terms and this tends to continue from article to article no matter what sources say. " Does anyone know why such inconsistency? --Irpen 02:42, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. First of all, Google hits are not relevant. Radical trust for Google hits is one of reasons why Wikipedia is still laughed at in the academic world. Second, it was a detention camp. It is a huge difference between a place where people die by tens of thousands and a place where political opposition figures are detained. - Darwinek (talk) 23:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Per Piotrus. Space Cadet (talk) 01:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppse - it's pure propaganda to use the same name for Auschwitz and Bereza. It's funny to discuss Soviet opinions about Bereza. What were Soviet opinions about Gulag?Xx236 (talk) 08:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support
  • 1) The activities that happened in the camp are the activities which are associated with the definition of what a concentration camp is defined as.
  • 2) All Ukrainian and Russian sources I checked, both Soviet, post Soviet and diaspora describe the camp as a concentration camp.
  • 3) Professor Yaniv, who did his PhD on the psychological effects on prison in concentration camps and who was an inmate at the camp describes the camp as being a concentration camp.
  • 4) Although the camp started out as an internment camp for a 3 month visit, it quickly changed, as did the environment within the camp. Inmates were not there for just 3 months, but some were interred there for 2 years. Some were tortured to the point of obtaining physical handicaps. There has been a deliberate understatement of the brutality within the camp and the true number of deaths. By 1938 conditions within the camp were disgusting. On top of this is seems that there was a cover up of these abuses and attrocities by Polish authorities.
  • 5)Almost all of the camp documentation is located in the Brest archives which are in Belarus and were not available for perousal to non-Soviet scholars. This is changing. Bandurist (talk) 04:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong support, Bereza Kartuska Concentration Camp is the most common name in English, that even more important that in Library of Congress Subject Headingsit is classified as concentration camp as well. So I do not see any reason why such popular name should not be used, and hardly "arguments" as pure propaganda is valid here. M.K. (talk) 11:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support per Bandurist --Splette :) How's my driving? 16:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support The description of camp and conditions fits the definition of concentration camp. Eduvalko (talk) 17:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. Two issues involved.
    1. Does the place fit the basic dictionary definition of the term "concentration camp". It does. Look up the link and see for yourself.
    2. Is the place commonly called the "concentration camp" in other sources? Yes it does as shown earlier.
  • Therefore, move to a proper name. --Irpen (talk) 21:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose There is a huge difference between a detention camp and a concentration camp. Google hits are not relevant, as they show any kind of pages, which are often created by people unfamiliar with the subject. Tymek (talk) 03:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose To cite Ukrainian and/or Russian sources to justify the move is not fair — Ukrainians were the ones, who suffered most in those camps, so their impartiality in this regard is naturally questionable. It should also be noted that the "concentration camp" name is used as anti-Polish accusaton, rather then a fact, notably by Polish communists. It was undoubtedly a gruesome place, and some atrocities have been committed there, but after the horrors of Nazi concentration camps the name came to imply a death camp, which this one wasn't. Changing it one way or the other is not going to solve anything but will rather inflame passions. Let's focus, on the contents rather then on useless battles over the name. --Hillock65 (talk) 04:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per Hillock65. Perhaps calling it an internment camp is most accurate though? Ostap (talk) 04:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Perhaps. I do wonder how to render the Polish term used for it - 'miejsce odosobnienia' - most correctly. Confinement camp, perhaps? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 05:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Why not just call it Bereza Kartuska camp and explain all of this in the article. Ostap (talk) 05:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
That's also a good idea. Or perhaps prison? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 05:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. Wow, all this bad blood over this? I have never heard of the place until this discussion. Allow me to explain my position. First of all, I have to agree with Hillock65 that citing Russian and Ukrainian sources to justify the move makes no sense. The name of the camp in those languages and English do not necessarily carry over. A connotation of, for example, Ukrainian: концтабір is different in English than Ukrainian. Every language has its own word for what kind of "camp" it is, BUT we are not in the business of translation. Only sources in English need to be consulted in order to establish the name. Darwiner and Tymek raise the objection that Google hits are irrelevant...but this is not google hits. Bereza Kartuska Concentration Camp comes up most frequently in "Google Books" (I am not providing a link; please use one cite above or better yet check yourself). This fact is relevant, and reflects the state of knowledge on the subject among scholars. In English, the camp is called not "internment", "detention", or other, but "concentration camp."--Riurik(discuss) 06:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Having read this article and the one on Concentration camps, I don't see how this camp fits the definition, however badly the detainees there may have been treated. I suspect that the authors cited as referring to it as a concentration camp are using the term more as a pejorative than an accurate (encyclopedia-standard) description. --Kotniski (talk) 13:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support My scan of the Library of Congress catalog[19] did not indicate any English language headings, aside from the aforementioned Google Books mention. Still, my scan of various Google Books results indicates to me that "Bereza Kartuska concentration camp" is the most common terminology in English, regardless of author's background. WP is not necessarily to correct sources, but to reflect them. That the camp's status as a concentration camp or a detention camp is disputed can certainly be listed (with sources). In line with other articles at Category:Internment camps and Category:Concentration camps, only "Bereza Kartuska" should be capitalized in the title. An alternative would simply to move the article to Bereza Kartuska, which is currently a redirect to Biaroza. Olessi (talk) 21:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Disagree with the above: Surely we don't try to reflect sources when we know them to be wrong?! If we did that, Wikipedia might as well not exist at all - we could just let people do their own googling. If there are no substantial facts in any source to indicate that this place was a concentration camp (within the encyclopedic meaning of the term - the dictionary definition linked to above is so absurdly wide as to include almost any prison), then we shouldn't call it one. Of course there should be redirects from other names that have been applied to the place, including the concentration camp ones, and it should be mentioned in the article that these names are sometimes given, but we shouldn't give credence to a notion which goes against the facts just because it happens to be relatively widespread.--Kotniski (talk) 08:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Articles should be titled how the subject is mostly commonly known as in English publications. Various viewpoints regarding a title can be addressed within articles. From WP:NC(CN): "Wikipedia is not a place to advocate a title change in order to reflect recent scholarship. The articles themselves reflect recent scholarship but the titles should represent common usage." Olessi 19:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
True, however please consider Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Controversial_names and WP:NCON. WP:NPOV has to be considered and I would argue that a neutral title is better than more popular but also less neutral and more controversial title.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Which is why I would support a neutral title such as "Bereza Kartuska camp." Nihil novi 22:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
"Bereza Kartuska camp" also seems suitable to me. Olessi 00:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
And to me - although to make it even more clear, what about "Beraza Kartuska prison"?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
"Bereza Kartuzka Prison" to me seems the most logical choice, because it wasn't really a camp. It was a monastery that was converted by the Russians to a prison, which was later initially utilised by the Poles as a measure to stop or slow down dissent in the 30's. The photographs I have are of a large, solid rock structure with 3 floors. The map of the area and the layout is that of a typical Roman Catholic Monastery. One of the buildings was originally a RC church. As soon as you name it an CAMP, the word concentration is conjured up. remove camp from the title and you remove the connotation. Bandurist 02:42, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
These arguments for "Bereza Kartuska prison" seem to me compelling. At first I had doubts, until I realized that the word "camp" has no historic sanction: the institution's original Polish name actually translates as "Place of Isolation at Bereza Kartuska." The only English equivalent for "place of isolation" that comes to mind, apart from "quarantine," is indeed "prison." Nihil novi 03:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Asylum, perhaps? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 04:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
"Hermitage," too. Nihil novi 04:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I and surely many others are waiting for your photos to be uploaded to Commons! :) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 03:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I second the sentiment. The photos, and the diagrams, too. Nihil novi 03:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I'll try today. But someone has placed a really good color photo up. The phot is facing South East within the main compound. That building is the main building of the prison where the prisoners were housed. The white shack was the "kartser" which was used for isolation or solitary confinement. South of the kartser is the well for drawing water and south of that the ablutions area. This whole area was encircled with electrified barb wire. Outside of this compound across the road were the house of the commandant and barracks for the officers. As you can see, one three story building do not a camp make. Bandurist 13:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
For the record, we have commons:Category:Biaroza monastery on Commons.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:14, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately the Library of Congress stores searches in a temporary cache that is deleted within a few minutes, and cannot be saved as a one-click result. Here is how one finds the subject heading: Go to [20]. Click on Basic Search, this brings up a new screen. Select the search type Subject Browse, and within the search text box, enter Bereza Kartuska. Click Begin Search. The next page brings up Bereza Kartuzka (Concentration camp) as a subject heading. Novickas (talk) 03:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the tips. Olessi 00:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The LoC decides if there exists Silesian language, now it decides what is the name of the Bereza Kartuska Detention Camp. How many Central-East European experts do they have there to instruct us? Any names of the experts? Part of Cyril Northcote Parkinson’s observations are that once a core organisation exists, it will perpetuate and expand itself regardless of the reason it came into being.Xx236 (talk) 08:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


Absent a consensus, to this point, to move this article from "Bereza Kartuska Detention Camp" to "Bereza Kartuska Concentration Camp," should we consider, instead, a move, as proposed above, to "Bereza Kartuska prison"? Nihil novi (talk) 10:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


[edit] It's not about Bereza victims, it's about prejudices

A Ukrainian killed or imprisoned by Poles deserves in this Wikipedia about 100 more place than a Ukrainian killed or imprisoned by Soviets. This is a Wikipedia, not a Bash-the-Poles-pedia. Start with the description of Soviet camps and mass executions and when you are finished go back after 5 years of hard work.

An example:

Category:Massacres in Ukraine


9 articles, among them

Summarizing:

  • Bykivnia is the only place when ethnic Ukrainians prevailed among victims. So this Wikipedia is quite anti-Ukrainian, because it doesn't inform about massacres of ethnic Ukrainians.

I add this category to Vinnytsia massacre and NKVD prisoner massacres to change the ratio. Xx236 (talk) 16:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Post 1939 fate of the camp

What happened to the camp after 1939, after 1941 and after 1944? Can we expand on that? --Kuban Cossack 14:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Good question.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

[edit] Requested move discussion, above

I have closed the above discussion, as it seems there is not a strong consensus to move this article to Bereza Kartuska concentration camp. Please note I have, however, moved it to Bereza Kartuska detention camp, purely to fix the capitalisation.

There was a suggestion to move it to Bereza Kartuska prison or Bereza Kartuska internment camp - to me, these seem like a fairly elegant solution that avoids the "concentration camp/detention camp" issue, and may warrant further discussion. Neil ☎ 11:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I will start an informal poll on those two names; please vote support or oppose and we will see which one we should RM (if any).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BK prison

  • Support. It is what it was. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Support Polish sources do not describe the facility as a camp. Indeed after looking at photos of the "camp" it is not a series of wooden barracks, buta three story building which was once a monastery. With the intended release of an English language version of a documentary film about the facility,a lotf controvers will be avoided it the word camp is removed. Bandurist (talk) 20:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Support per above arguments. --Kotniski (talk) 21:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. The Polish "Miejsce Odosobnienia w Berezie Kartuskiej," if that was indeed its official name, does not translate as any kind of "camp" but as "Place of Isolation at Bereza Kartuska." Nihil novi (talk) 04:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BK internment camp

[edit] BK camp

  • Support. It was called something camp, this skips the controversial something issue. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. It wasn't officially called anything camp, and "camp" alone with no qualifier is hopelessly vague (it doesn't even imply a place of detention).--Kotniski (talk) 07:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
maybe not in Polish, but english sources use camp. Ostap (talk) 21:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] move to any one of the three

  • support They all seem more accurate than the current title. Ostap (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 05:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Camp is more accurate than detention camp? Disagree.--Kotniski (talk) 07:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

In the light of the above (now somewhat old) discussion, I suggest we move have moved this to Bereza Kartuska prison.--Kotniski (talk) 11:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


[edit] Number of casualties

Norman Davies in his God's Playground, widely recognized as one of the most authoritative histories of Poland, confirms 17 as the number of death. The article states however that: Ukrainian historian, Viktor Idzio, states that according to official statistics, 176 men – by unofficial Polish statistics, 324 Ukrainians – were murdered or tortured to death during questioning, or died from disease, while escaping, or disappeared without trace. First of all, are we sure that Idzio claims that there were 176 to 324 fatalities, or just that that many people were tortured? What are his sources? Is he a reliable historian? I am afraid that we need to consider WP:UNDUE/WP:FRINGE here. PS. I also find dubious his claims that majority of prisoners were OUN members; Encyklopedia Interia does not even mention Ukrainians in its short enumeration of prisoner types ("communists, left-wing activists, some right-wing and peasant party's activists, economic criminals"). Perhaps it is time sensitive; Subtelny notes that in 1934 when the camp was estabilished, most of its 2000 prisoners were Ukrainian (this makes sense as it was created in the aftermath of OUN assassination of Pieracki); but he notes on the following page that in 1935 there was a stabilization of Polish-Ukrainian relations and "most of the Ukrainian prisoners of Bereza were freed". --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The numbers Idzio gives in his book are what is on the page. I could scan it and send it to you if you would like. As far as I know, Idzio is a respected scholar. I personally know him, and he is extremely careful living in Moscow and working the archives that he has access to.

Here is a translation of the passage on pag 7:

The first prisoners of the concentration camp 17th July 1934 became the prominant activists of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists: R. Shukhevych, D. Hrytsai, V. Yaniv. The German fascists practically copied the Polish model and used it for their own needs for the fulfillment of sadism and terror, so we will breifly characterise the European (there are also the Russian Bolshevik) - Polish teachers of the "Concentration camp" movement.

As shown by the documents, one can see two phases in the functioning of the Polish concentration camp of Bereza Kartuzka. The first falls on 1934-37, where there were Ukrainians among the political prisoners, by official statistics, 176 men, by unofficial witnesses from the Polish side, murdered, tortured to death during questioning, deaths from disease, escapees, people who disappeared without trace and others - 324 Ukrainians, mainly members of the OUN.

At the beginning of 1938, when the OUN movement in Poland became stronger, the Polish administration threw into Bereza Kartuzka without appeal 4500 Ukrainians.

The first commandant of the concentration cam was Hrefner and from January 1935 - Yu. Kamal'. The attitude of the Polish administration to the Ukrainians was intolerable, as it was later in the German concentration camps. A comparitive analysis of the sources gives us the right to note that to the Ukrainians in the concentration camps the Germans were much more humane than the Poles in Bereza Kartuzka. As told by the members of the OUN who were interned there: beatings (they placed boards to ones back and hit it with heavy hammers), compulsory physical labour, in order to break the will, the constant fast pace, constant nagging, without povocation - solitary confinement, the ban on the speaking of Ukrainian language amongst each other etc.

In each of the cells an average of 40 prisoners were interned, there were no benches, tables and the floor was concrete. So that the prisoners would not sit, they were covered with water. Most Ukrainian prisoners after being released had poor health or soon died. As a result T. Bulba-Borovetz, the otaman of the first groupings of the UPA "earned" in Bereza Kartuzka epilepsy.

(Page 7)

Bandurist (talk) 11:49, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please clarify the source

For 7000 inmates: [21]. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Copied from Piotrus' talk page.
Please take a closer look at that one and only source. [22] It says right up-front (in its own subhead) that "all claims are unofficial". The article and its commercially driven sponsor both stir controversy for the purpose of Internet traffic. A definite candidate for AfD unless more reliable sources are found. --Poeticbent talk 19:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
The more I articles I see on this page [23], the more surprised I get. Looks like this is a nationalist agenda, which glorifies the Ukrainian Nazi division and UNA-UNSO (Ukrainian National Assembly – Ukrainian National Self Defence). Look here [24], I have serious doubts, if this page can be regarded a reliable source. Tymek (talk) 22:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Still looking for information in Ukrainian sources. The author is a deputate to the Ukrainian parliament from the Volyn region, however it is disturbing to note that only the one mention can be found from 2003. One would have thought that mre would have surfaced by now.

Shall try the USS and Memorial sites this weekend. Otherwise I guess it should be removed. Bandurist (talk) 11:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)