Talk:Berber mythology

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Hi, I did my best to write a readable article, i know my i'm not the best writer in English, and i'm not the most accurate writer either. I believe i've the needed sources to defend the content of the article. So, please help with improving my English and the content. If you believe that a claim is not accurate or even wrong, please use the talk-page [although you're not obligated] to explain your opinion. You might also be wrong! On the other hand, this article is not done, i wrote now only on the polytheistic part of the berber beliefs. I'll later try to add the monotheistic part of the berber beliefs. I'm gratefull for you coorporation and expanding of the article.Read3r 13:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Image's copyright

The image in this following site is a picture for a numidian pyramid, it is found in other sites too. Do i violate the copyrights of the image by uploading it here? http://elguanche.net/imedghasen.jpg Thanks in advance, Read3r 19:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Judaism in Northwest Africa

OK, I did a little bit of proofing/editing on the Judaism section of your article--(ethnocentric Jew that I am, I ignored the rest). It still needs professional help. For your comment about "David U Moshe" or "David N Baruch" being Jewish Berber names, what do you mean? "David", "Baruch" and "Moshe" are simply Hebrew names ... Do you mean that the "U" and the "N" respectively are the idicators of Berber influence on these Jewish names? Wouldn't it then be something like "Davidou"? I don't know enough about Berber to say. I think some seriopus fact checking and editing needs ot be done, no offense. 38.119.129.16 16:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the corrections! I meant that those saints names were influenced by the Berber language. And yes, that is the "N" and "U". "N" means "Of" [English]. It is comperable with "Ben":
The saints of the major pilgrimage sites at Agouim and Tinzert (in the Sous) were known as Rabbi David U Moshe and Rabbi David N Baruch respectively. This is clear evidence of Berber speech, but it is also true that linguistic forms can be preserved in names long after a given language has ceased being spoken by a community (cf. O'Brien, MacDonald). THE MELLAHS OF SOUTHERN MOROCCO: REPORT OF A SURVEY (The Maghreb Review 8, 3-4,1983, pp. 61-69) By Harvey E. Goldberg: .
For checking the factuality, we have this talk-page, feel free to discuss al your remarks like you now did! [Personal Invitation]. but one thing has to be respected, the fact is a fact whether it is attrackting or not. : ) . Read3r 13:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christianity in Northwest Africa

Hi Smith2006, sorry for reverting your contribution in that section. My reasons are: Unsufficient content: Its says not a lot about the history of the christianity in Northwest Africa. It does not show how christianity emerged there, and how the people approached it. Also it didn't say any thing about the contribution of the north africans.

The struggle between the Romans and the berbers was ignored.

I don't believe that the Moroccan christians suffers in morocco for their religion.

What you said about the some berbers converted to christianity during the colonization is doubtful.

If you insist you can re-revert it. Maybe, we will discuss it after some months. I left that section as last one, because i know it is difficult and i wanted to learn more before writing there about. Best regards; Read3r 14:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed your contribution again; Other reasons are: Your contribution was almost contentless to the history of the christianity in the Berber communities. I agree with you that the section was called "Christianity in North west Africa". Nevertheless, the article is about "the Berber beliefs". So, it was not aimed to cover neither the history of the Greeks or "Ibero-Romans" in North Africa nor the Moroccan and Algerian muslims. Sorry for sayying it is irrelevant to the Berber beliefs. If you think it is an urgent fact that cannot bear any ignorance, you can write those relevant statemnets in an article called "christianity in Morocco and Algerian". Furthermore, i don't see why you are insisting to write it. What did i learnt?

  • "Islam eredicated the chrisianity in Northwest africa": How big was the christian community in Northwest Africa?
  • The Greeks, Berbers, and ibero-romans were donatists: Was it not the Berber who created and adopted donatism to fight the Romans?
  • Which catholics were there in North Africa at those times?
  • How confusing and inaccurat is it when sayying that some Berbers converted to christianity by any one?
  • What did i learnt about the Berber beliefs when sayying that the christians are suffering from Morocco, algeria and some muslims?

In any case, the content should be written in relationship with the Berbers, and there is no need to take morocco, algeria, Iran and muslims into consideration. So, write another relevant content, and you will see i'm happy to read it. Read3r 10:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not owned by you, neither are the Berbers Muslims always as you want us to believe. Pope Gelasius I was a Berber. That tells us enough about the Berber Church in Africa, does not it? Basta. You leave it in, or I will take recourse to the moderators of wikipedia for your vandalism.Smith2006 14:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I know you tend to personalize the discussion! Yes, you're right it is not of me. But i don't like seeing an article written by me being misused to attack any group or religion. Nevertheless, i'm not that utopic. In fact i see you contribution as not related the subject of the article. This article is not aimed to cover the history of the christianity in Northwest Africa. It is aimed to the cover the berber beliefs. The christianity is one those beliefs. It is not correct that i want you to believe that all Berbers were muslims from the down of the history; The Guanches are now Christians. Those people are considered to be Berbers. It is the main goal of this article to uncover their beliefs. If you could understand this. That section must has the berbers as the main role player. And not equaling them with the romans and Greeks. If you want to write a general article on the history of the christianity in Northwest africa you can then begin another article called "The christianity in Northwest Africa". By the way, some one told me that Agustine, Tertullian, Donatus, Cyprianus, Arius and Arnobius were Berbers. But i don't know how accurate that is. Thanks for understanding. Read3r 14:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Is it allowed to post citations of ancient historians like "Herodotus" in wikipedia? This is an example of a citation: but about this god the Hellenes learnt from the Libyans, for no people except the Libyans have had the name of Poseidon from the first and have paid honour to this god always I copied this citaion from this site. Do we need to refer to the source if it is an acceptable idea? Read3r 14:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Monotheistic religions

If no body has objection, i would remove the sections about Judaism, Chrisitianity and Islam. the Reasons are: The article is being too long, especially when adding the references. The monontheistic religions should be written in other articles. Read3r 13:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article should be moved + sources need expansion

This article should be moved to Berber_religion. Strictly speaking, very little of this article has to do with mythology, which refers to certain sorts of sacred narratives (or to the body of such narratives). While the customs and history here touch on mythological connections in many cases, they themselves do not constitute mythology. However, I see nothing here that would be problematic in an article on Berber religious beliefs. If there are no objections within the next few weeks, I will move this page to that location and put a redirect from the present location to the new one.

As a second point, there are many citations in the article that are simply incomplete. Could whoever supplied them please provide their full citation forms? Simply providing someone's name is not sufficient to find the information. In addition, to satisfy Wikipedia's emphasis on verifiability, personal communication as the citation would actualy be grounds for deleting information in this article. I don't think that would be appropriate or wise to do, but the citations do need to be cleaned up. --Fenevad 01:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Please see my responses leafed in below -Fenevad 04:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the exact explanation. I will also do my best to give you exact answers in brown color ;)
Thanks for remarks. I don't agree with moving the article to Berber religion. The reason: This article does not cover all the Berber religion. Especially, that when speaking on the religion, "the monotheistic religions" come to mind. This is as far the title is concerned.
As far as the content is concerned, i have to say you are overexagerating when sayying very little of this article has to do with mythology. It is not an article on the Berber deities. Such content is found in the article: Berber pantheon. The article here is about the Berber beliefs: The backgrounds, the influences, evolutions and their impacts on the social relationships among the Berber themselves and their neighbours or the other mediterranean people.
Fair enough, but I really wasn't exaggerating about it not being mythology. Most of it has to do with religious belief in the past, but there aren't actually any myths in this article at all. Note that I am using myth and mythology with rather precise meaning: mythology, in the scholarly sense, refers to a body of (usually sacred) narratives relating to a time when the world was not as it now is. In a broader sense it can include the systematized body of beliefs related to the actions of deities, but really very little of this article would be considered mythology in a scholarly setting; instead it would be called "historical religion" or something like that. (Things like burial customs, megalithic culture, etc., aren't considered mythology). If you can suggest another name besides religion, that's fine, but mythology really isn't the appropriate term since it is quite specific in its meaning.

My definition for the name "mythology" is "the science of the myths". "myth" + "logy" (science from Greek maybe). The science in its nature doesn't cover the myths, but it studies it instead. However, it was not me who gave it this name. the name was given to categorical purposes. If you believe it cannot be called like this, we can start a poll asking for the other opionions, and personally i don't have any problem with other names. But titles such "religion" and "historical religions" are also not accurate. "Judaism" and "Chrisitianity" are also included in an article that would be called "Historical religions". The first name given by me was "Berber beliefs", however, this is also not accurate, because judaism ... were also among berber beliefs.

Now the ciations: Please help me to help you. I believe the most of the citations are ended with their sources. You can therefore, read their sources if they are online or go to the library. And with all my repsect, you have to indicate the meant citations, because i won't give all the rest. To me, they are suffisant. If not to you, please indicate the meanat citations.
Here are some examples. I am not trying to be rude or pedantic, but to point out a real problem in the citation of this article, one which I cannot fix as a non-expert on the topic.
  • #2:"The Scientific Study of Mummies" This, I presume, is Aufderheide's work, but I cannot say for sure with the information provided since no name is given anywhere for an author.

You are right in the two points, the name of the author is Arthur C. Aufderheide. I think i'll remove it. It is not very needed

* #5. "Moustapha Ouachi". Personal communication is not an acceptable source in Wikipedia. But this citation does not provide anything other than a name, and the first occurrence is in the references. (This is the one I referred to as "simply providing someone's name). (found it later -Fenevad) [However, the citation to "The Berbers and the death: An article written by the Berber-based historian Moustapha Ouachi in the Moroccan magazine: El-Haraka." is incomplete. Since most English-language readers are unlikely to know this journal, you need to have volume and page numbers or something else that would help readers locate that source. -Fenevad]

For this i don't the other details. I know that Moustapha Ouachi is an archeologist and historian, a prof. in the Moroccan university Mohammed V in Rabat, and a member of the IRCAM with some books on the Berber history especially the Classical ones. The article was copied by the libyan sites tawalt.com and set in its archive, i have the full article, but i thought it is almost useless in the English wikipedia since it is written in Arabic: (The article)

  • #7. "Mohammed Chafik, Revue Tifinagh". Is this a journal, a book, what? There is insufficient information given to tell what this is for someone who doesn't already know the work.

It is an informative book (my personal opinion) written by Mohammed Chafik, a historian and ex-director of the IRCAM; It is also cited by the antropologist "Helene Hagan" in her own review for the English book "The Berbers": Berber funerary practices seem to have extended from the Atlantic ocean to the banks of the Nile consistently, and might have given rise to the later "Egyptian" funerary rites and the whole pyramidal complex (Cf. Mohammed Chafik, Revue Tifinagh, No. 11-12, 1997, pages 89-98: Elements lexicaux Berberes pouvant apporter un eclairage dans la recherche des origines prehistoriques des pyramides). Such research, stemming from North African scholars, seems to be unavailable to the authors of the book.
This book is also copied by "tawalt.com" in its library. The book and the full name and maybe the page too, were mentioned in an earlier reference in the same page. it is in arabic, unfortunately.

  • #13. "Herodotus: The Histories". This needs some indication of what portion is referred to. The present form is like telling someone, "it's in Moby Dick somewhere." It may be true, but is useless for someone trying to find the source text passage you ave in mind. (struck through -13:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC))

Since, i'm not able to rewrite his work, i only cited them from other sites. The source was mentioned in earlier reference in the same page; If i'm mistaken, please, cite the exact citation

  • #16. "Mohammed Mustapha Bazma, The Libyan influence on the Egyptian and Greek civilizations and their influence on the Libyan civilization." Again, what is this source? An article or a book? There is no way to tell, and Googling the title you give returns exactly one hit on the entire Internet: this article. That means that it would be very difficult or impossible to find the source with what you have given. A publisher or journal title would help...

You're right, it is a book written by the Libyan historian "Mohammed Moustapha Bazma", but in Arabic, i only translated the title. I'm also mistaken in the title, because what i gave is the name of the part covering the influences. that part is widely cited in arab sites and fora. I'will later give the exat name

  • #20. Helene Hagan. Again, I had to Google this source to find out that it was a book. The reference should have the publisher.

It is Publisher: Xlibris Corporation (29 Jun 2001) I will late add it to the reference

  • #25. This looks like a citation of fact in the body, but is in fact an uncited note...

I think i don't understand this. It is the own words of Herodotus on Poseidon attributing to the libyans. The reference is the site where it is cited from

In addition, this is unclear: Simply providing someone's name is not sufficient to find the information.. Because i don't think there are such cases in the article, all of the names were combined with their sources (If you meant the refeneces like: 12- James Hastings. It is because there was an earlier reference above to his book). Please, read the article and references again.
I think you will see from what I have provided that there are problems with the citations. (Please pardon me for being particular on this, but I edit scholarly works dealing with folklore, mythology, and anthropology for a living, so I am quick to spot citations that are off.)

I understand it (luckily :)). The problem is there are no much works covering the history of the Berbers in English. It would be not surprising that the first and only book written on the Berbers in English is recent book "The berbers" (read its review in google). My sources, are principally in Arabic, and i believe the English readers will never read them, because they are untraslated or unfound in Europe and America. The spread of such book is absolutely not encouraged by the North African governement. I post two citation, however offtopic: In Morocco, during preliminary fieldwork, I encountered deep antagonism on the part of the representative of the Moroccan Minister of Culture to whom I introduced myself in 1981. The message he conveyed to me in clear language was that there were no longer any Berbers in Morocco and that I had been misinformed. Of course, the Arabic gentleman knew nothing of my birthplace or genealogy, and of my personal ties to the Berber community.[http://www.tazzla.org/berber.htmlBOOK REVIEW by Helene E. Hagan]
In 1989, a book, written in Arabic, appeared in Morocco with a title of lamhatun aan thalathatin wa thalathina qarnan min tarikhi el' amazighiyyin [Highlights of thirty-three centuries of the history of Imazighen]. It was written by Mohammed Shafiq, a member of the Royal Moroccan Academy who was, until the appearance of his publication, unknown in the public arena. His book that normally wouldn't be published in Morocco caused a division in public opinion.The New Mass Media and the Shaping of Amazigh Identity read the rest in the part: The challenge of print.

If you want more sources, just ask it. But i don't think i will authomatically expand the sources. If needed i can give each statement its source else it would be removed.
My last point, i do appreciate your choise to discusse the article, however, i believe your notes should be less general. Best regards! Read3r 10:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry you found them too general. I hope the specifics above will be helpful. I do think that moving the article somewhere else would be helpful since mythology is too precise for what this addresses. While some of it is mythology, most of it wouldn't be considered as such in a scholarly setting. I found the content interesting, which is why I bothered to respond. -Fenevad 04:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Not because, it was not wise to say that, but i could't answer it since i had to review all the article. I will give the citation needed for the article. If you find there are still unclear answers, just indicate it and for changing the article, i think you should give a correct title (because "religion" or "Historical religion" are inaccurate either, and maybe, the megalithic culture as example is not a religion. Should we then re-call it: "Berber bliefs" but how about the "the monotheistic religions"?). Best regards!

[edit] Copy edit

I have started a pretty major copy edit of the text. In the process I am tagging everything that needs citation that doesn't already have it and I am also embedding HTML comments where additional information is needed to guide other editors. If you read the text in the edit window you will find the comments stating what is needed to make the citations complete. If anyone fixes anything noted in the comments, please remove the comments so that other editors don't think more work is needed. -Fenevad 13:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)