User talk:Benjiboi/Archive 8

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Archive 8

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Hello

Hello, Benjiboi! :) I just wanted to say that I enjoy your edits here and I hope to see more of them in the future. Just thought you might be interested in this: Portal:Feminism/Feminism_Task_Force --Grrrlriot (talk) 23:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I will take a look, thanks. Benji boi 10:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Lists

Did you know List of bisexual people existed? Redundant with List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people, no? - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 15:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Not in my book. Many folks, depending on culture and mores of the time are happy to identify as one or another (see Bisexual chic) and there are quite a few (like Elton John) who were in one list by now in another or there is dispute which team gets to lay claim. As far as i can tell most people are actually bisexual with true homos and heteros, as Kinsey suggests being the fringe minorities with roughly equal numbers of those who only prefer same or opposite sex and the majority open to both possibilities. Until then these lists will be wonky and people will need a list of just bisexuals just as we need the GLB and trans lists. Benji boi 11:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Ha!

http://www.queerty.com/jeff-gannon-talks-hillary-with-matt-sanchez-20080211/ - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 15:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Well that's quite helpful isn't it? Thank gawd for qwerty! Benji boi 11:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

In the comments they linked to some of his reports in French, so I don't really know if they are noteworthy or not. Benji boi 12:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

hi

you go girl! (well boy)Alexoxo (talk) 14:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, Benji boi 12:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Ciesta Fiesta

Now that you're back (missed you!), feel free to contribute to WP:FUGLY, a new complement to WP:HOTTIE. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 05:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, that is informative but I'll have to back-burner it as I'm like a butcher who backed into a meat-grinder - I've gotten behind in things. Benji boi 05:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Tea

☻ Someone has poured you tea ☺

Thank you! Cheers! Benji boi 12:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

List of male performers in gay porn films

Instead of reverting my edits, try taking it to the talk page and discussing it because all of the gay pornstar articles have been limited to 6 movies. Want a reason? Read this. Including a long list of unnoteworthy titles such as Meat the Fuckers & Best Of Thugporn.com is encyclopedic how? If someone wants to see a complete list of porn titles, then someone can access Van Darkholme's porn site that has a link in the WP article. Read this. Please don't think I'm somehow attacking these articles (some gays on WP think any kind of edit to a LGBT article is 'anti-gay' or some shit...and I'm not referring to you), I'm just trying to avoid making Wikipedia into Pornopedia. Having articles on these guys is fine (I love gay porn...alot...and have no problem with the guys...I'd be a hypocrite if I did have one), but adding nude pix, porn links, and listing a ton of unnoteable titles is pointless. We (me included) have to think with our heads instead of our...other heads. :) AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 06:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

/me runs off to start WP:THINKWITHSWOLLENHEAD. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 06:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

/me is in a state of shock because you haven't created that already. AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 06:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Just trying to decide if it should just be a redirect to WP:HOTTIE. lol - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 08:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Your recent deletionist bent to remove titles is interesting but misplaced. And unless you are now claiming to be an expert on those gay porn films I doubt you or I are qualified to determine which ones are most notable and as has been pointed out to you elsewhere there is disagreement on the porn project's guideline about the six titles guide. They also admit it was made more to deal with hetero porn stars. We list absolutely every film most actors are in yet feel a diminished standard is acceptable for porn which I don't necessarily agree, especially as the caliber of those films has been raised over time. Especially since it's a newer art form that is yet to be fully understood as a window into alternative cultures. Making yourself judge and jury over content doesn't seem warranted in these cases and I don't think is helpful to improving those articles. Perhaps adding sources to add content and context to the article would make sense and within that framework which of those films most accurately conveys the arc of their careers will be revealed. Until then we are just hacking away at content for the purpose of enforcing a guideline whose consensus was shaky and was created for non-gay porn. I find all of that problematic. At the very least I invite you to return to all the articles that haven't been reverted and restore that content to the talk pages so the work that someone else has labored at isn't lost altogether. Benji boi 11:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

So there should be a difference between formatting gay and hetero porn star articles? Why is that? Special treatment for gays? BTW, using the words "deletionist bent" is very cute. AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 11:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm suggesting that first we consider not simply removing content because of one project's guidelines, which even they admit are problematic. And instead look to improving the articles by adding better content that will help reveal which films are more noteworthy than the rest. Until you have a good article which tells you about the performer and their career the range of films is one one the few items we have to understand what they did. And you're deleting it with little sense as to which content should be kept and which is deleted. And against consensus which is evident that the content was there prior to your deleting it and you and I disagreeing that deleting it was acceptable. If you look hard enough you can find a rule to support deleting almost anything you want. Personally I find that not helpful but there you go. Also I'm not looking for "special" treatment (wow, "very cute") instead I prefer equal treatment for porn actors as all actors and let's try to imagine that just maybe gay porn is unique from lesbian porn is unique from many other other sub-genres. Wikipedia is not censored and I see little urge to wipe out content from articles until the editor's on each article come to a consensus to do so. Benji boi 11:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

You said that it was "created for non-gay porn"...so basically you're suggesting that we shouldn't adhere to standards that the WP Porn Project thinks is appropriate for hetero porn. That's what I asked in the first place because it seems you were implying that the gay porn star articles shouldn't adhere to the same standards. AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 11:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm stating, again, that even the porn project had issues with that guideline and that guideline wasn't created with non-straight porn in mind. In short it's flawed and using it to do mass deletions is likewise flawed. I will also be a bit less subtle and suggest, again, that instead of using the guideline created to help guide those building articles that you have taken it as license to mass delete material. Against consensus, IMHO. Benji boi 12:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

So because you think it's flawed, then it's flawed. Seems like most people agreed on the porn project page that 6 was a good number. You still have yet to give a reason why the guideline should be different for gays because you keep saying "non-straight porn in mind." You can be less subtle all you want, the Talk:Rick Pantera page I showed you already shows why the number was reduced. Aleta, SatyrTN, and I all said in that discussion that having a large number of movies wasn't right. So please cut the dramatics and suggesting that I "mass deleted material." AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 12:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Describing porns as "a newer art form that is yet to be fully understood as a window into alternative cultures" is a bit of a stretch. A movie that is made so guys can jack off is a newer art form? AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 11:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Completely disagree. A bit of a stretch is similar to the arguments that women can do "men's" work and that blacks (and now gays) deserve equal rights. Just because sex education in America is woefully Victorian-era influenced and women going topless remains illegal hardly means that pornography doesn't transcend into art realms despite the basic human needs it serves. LGBT and feminists studies on the collegiate level are quite new and comprehensive studies into pornographic films remains an emerging interest. Benji boi 11:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Bringing in women and blacks as examples is the supreme example of stretching it to try to prove some non-existant point. AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 11:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll rephrase - Porn might be considered an "art form" but nothing about it is new and describing it as a "window into alternative cultures" sounds like P.C. fluff. So if a hetero watches Stick It In My Butt, that person now sees a glimpse of the gay lifestyle? Contrary to popular opinion, some gays do have a life that doesn't just exist around sex (as much as I joke about it, it's true), and your description makes it seem like that's what being gay is all about. AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 11:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Disagree here as well. Rules created to serve one dominant set of people are just about guaranteed not to respect the needs of minority communities. These are not new lessons as the struggles, that continue presently, reverberate systematically and institutionally. And for the record I think your idea of having straight people watch gay porn is great! Benji boi 12:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I will agree with you that more heteros should watch gay porn...only for the reason that I would like to videotape their responses and put it on youtube. AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 12:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Outdent. It seems from your talkpage you've now retired from the talkpage which is unfortunate because you're feisty and have a great sense of humor. If you decide to return and want to revisit this issue please consider some sage advice from those wiser than I ... Benji boi 17:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

“

"better impact on wikipedia if he went about these removals in a more consultative rather than combative fashion. Sudden removal can really annoys people (who otherwise might have been persuadable), entrenches positions in place of reason, and starts edit wars. If he made a clearer case for removal first, and brought people with him, he'd have more luck, create less agro, and improve wikipedia."

”

Talk:Jack Chick

add archive and clean-up talk page. Benji boi

I've done a bit of cleanup on the article so it looks less like OR. Any other items of interest in the article? Will ^(talk) 18:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I think much of what you've done has been again reverted. If left some messages on the talk page about neutrality concerns. I'm concerned that we're labeling this guy without strong sourcing. Even if he's a bit overboard we should be neutral. Benji boi 02:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your recent efforts...

...in the ongoing discussions regarding transgender taxonomies based on sexual behavior. I'll work on sticking to article content. Jokestress (talk) 17:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

No prob. It's taken some learning on my part as well but deep down (somewhere in there) I know that this project needs different voices and opinions to more fully understand our world. Rabble rousers start countries and even Jesus was considered a whack job by people in his time and now he's practically worshiped! Dissent can feel crummy at times but it's good to evaluate and question our ideas and see if maybe we can improve things. Or maybe not, who knows! Benji boi 17:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Jokestress talk comment.

If you saw the show "transamerican love story" ep1. You would see that thier was some dued on there who ran a porn site and had a mustache that and overall look that just wasn't right. (Probably why Calpernia Adams sent him away.) I chacacterize him as having a chester the molester stache as a way of describing his over all....depraved look. It's sort of a joke. I don't see how that is uncivil to Jokestress or anyone for that matter. It could be that you and I just have different senses of these things. --Hfarmer (talk) 17:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I hoped it was just some stretch of humor and you've confirmed it. Humor doesn't always translate so there you go. Benji boi 18:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Deletion discussion for Category:Prima donnas

Hi, you recently participated in a discussion on the Category:Prima donnas talk page about the use of this category. [1] Category:Prima donnas has now been proposed for deletion. You might want to comment on the new discussion page [2]. Best wishes,Voceditenore (talk) 08:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know, I've commented there and I hope we find an elegant solution. Benji boi 00:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Alexander James Adams

Hi :) The edits I made were in the Alexander James Adams discography. One, to get rid of a page of big "cite error"s. Also, the reference was to the old store page on heatherlands.com, not the old Heather Alexander discography([3]), so it was missing even more of the heather solo albums. (I suppose if we referenced both it would be accurate :)

Also I wanted to clarify which albums are released by Alec (currently listed on the http://www.heatherlands.com home page) and which are by Heather.

I also added info to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alexander_James_Adams using my JenKilmer login. Hope this helps. I have stopped making updates since you seem to be on a roll.

Thanks :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.208.40.254 (talk) 02:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

We need to show due respect to the subject who seems to want to downplay his gender transition and I see no reason not to do so. The career section is now early years-2006 and 2007-present. The discography needs work but doesn't need to re-emphasize gender change unduly. And yes all the WP:CITEs need to be properly formatted. Benji boi 02:30, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

mallards (Re:Homosexuality in animals)

Resolved. content with ref added to support use of image

mallards —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mbz1 (talk • contribs) 05:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Great! Now we just need to add that content to the article so the image is also seen as valid content. Benji boi 10:22, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. Benji boi 10:41, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

List of Desperate Housewives characters

List of Desperate Housewives characters?? There are what, three minor characters on the show? It occasionally deals with gay themes, but is kinda rare? Why in the world would the list of characters be within the project's scope? Desperate Housewives isn't. Thoughts? I watch your page, so you can respond here :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Desperate Housewives is a major primetime television dramedy that has newly added a gay couple as one of the neighbors. By default only the four women leads are the main characters of the large ensemble but in addition to the gay couple one of the leads, Brie (spelling?) also has a gay son. These LGBT issue are all through the filter of white gay men but the project would still seem to be interested in ensuring that as topics and issues are presented that they are accurate and that we are available as a resource. Come to think of it I think the show's creator/writer is gay so the main article should also have our tag. Benji boi 00:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok - so that explains why the show itself belongs (though it seems a tad tenuous, IMO). But the list of characters? When only three of the list of 118 characters are gay? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 02:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Again it was mainly because of the gay couple, had they their own article our tag would be there. This suggests that we are interested in the subject and can serve as a resource on this subject. I'm missing why this is a big deal? Benji boi 02:41, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I thought there was some following in the gay community, partially because of the character Andrew Van de Kamp who is the gay son of Bree, and seems to be more developed than just a stereotypical sideline gay character. At least that character seemed to create more of whatever amount of homobuzz there was. His gay kisses caused some controversy amongst the fundies also. But I don't think it's a big deal, one way or the other, for this list. And yes, Benji is right, the creator of the show, Marc Cherry, is gay. — BTW, I happen to enjoy DH, because it's a very well done prime time soap opera. I wouldn't want to be known as a person that enjoyed daytime <gasp> soaps, but since it's broadcast evenings, that justifies it. ;-} — Becksguy (talk) 11:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

You're doing "research" Becksguy, ya that's it research! Benji boi 11:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not a big deal - I just follow our banner on articles and it seemed strange to me that we would be interested in the list of characters. I mean, when you think of LGBT lists, List of lesbian periodicals, Transgender in film and television, those are the things that come to mind. Desperate Housewives doesn't seem to fit. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 15:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd say just rate it extra low on the importance scale then. For some people these very real characters may be their first and only introduction to the LGBT world. Benji boi 01:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Somehow I never thought of watching the boob tube as "research". Hmmmm... Mother to child: Are you doing your homework? Child: Yes, I'm researching. — Becksguy (talk) 15:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Lol! Benji boi 01:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I notice you've removed the tag, so much for consensus. Benji boi 19:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Wall of shame.jpg

Apparently, you're being accused of meatpuppeting and I am letting you know so that you may respond. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 02:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, he should know better - huh? Benji boi 03:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

He should. He's been right down adamant that Sanchez can do no wrong when it comes to images and has !voted to keep them from Commons to here, or if he didn't !vote he still argued to keep. I will however assume good faith that he's got a good reason behind it, which is what he should have done with you at Wall of shame. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ ^echo 03:21, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, as I stated the talk page is at least moving along so we're making progress now that Sanchez is on hold. It's been a good learning experience if nothing else. Benji boi 03:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI, you have been subjected to a homophobic spray from Matt in the deletion discussion for this image. I have struck through his comments, and the IP used is now blocked for a month, but I thought I'd leave it to you to remove the comments. Btw, if you look at Swatjester's talk page, you'll find Matt has a new suggestion for his image - his Marine Corps photo in Dress Blues. Maybe we could get a sceen cap of him working his jaw in Jawbreaker to use - it'd be as consistent with NPOV! Jay*Jay (talk) 16:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Richard Simmons

Thanks for letting me know, I saw a couple of other actors that had used the imdb which is why I used it. I'll look for some other source. Solid Reign (talk) 16:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Is allmovie.com a reliable source? Solid Reign (talk) 17:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

It looked promising but I wouldn't use it; they cite a bcklog of six weeks for correction and Simmons' bio is all of "Executive Producer, Actor, Choreography; Birth - Jul 12, 1948 - New Orleans, LA; Genres - Health & Fitness" so it hardly seems well-informed and there is no statement or assertion they check facts or sources. Try People magazine they love celebrity birthdays. Benji boi 18:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Chris Crocker (Internet celebrity)

notable new vid and advocate link Benji boi 18:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC) source here and here. Benji boi

Bored? Andrew Sullivan

Andrew Sullivan major ref clean-up/overhaul and EL clean-up. Benji boi

added to todo list. Benji boi 13:54, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

National Leather Association International

Needs refs asap! Benji boi

added to watchlist for now, rescue if needed. Benji boi 13:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Gaydar

Talk:Gaydar add archives, talk clean-up. Benji boi

done. Benji boi 14:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Andrew Sullivan

add archive and clean-up talk. Benji boi

too much drama for now. Benji boi 14:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Anal sex

format archives and ?, clean-up talk and archive Benji boi

also too much drama. Benji boi 14:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Boy_Meets_Boy_(TV_series)#Trivia

move 3 trivia items into text. Benji boi

Done. Benji boi 14:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Jack Chick talk clean-up

clean-up talk and post notice at BLP if not addressed. Benji boi

Done. Benji boi 13:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Fart lighting

Fart_lighting#Usages_in_popular_culture - convert to prose. Benji boi

Done. Benji boi 09:59, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Lonnie Frisbee

I am the filmmaker who made the documentary on Lonnie Frisbee. Unconstructive edits? I am trying to take down things that are unconstructive... and you keep putting them back up.

He was not a "closeted gay man"... that doesn't aptly describe what he was. And since it is my work that has defined him, I think that I should get the last say on this.

STOP CHANGING MY CHANGES! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barkonst (talk • contribs) 14:29, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

STOP CHANGING MY CHANGES! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barkonst (talk • contribs) 14:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually reliable sources, including the documentary you claim to be creator of, disagree with you. If you were the documentarian, which I doubt, your behavior would unlikely be as such. If you are the documentarian you could perhaps link us to some reliable sources that he wasn't gay or closeted. Then we could sort out how to reconcile conflicting sources. Benji boi 01:41, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Matt Sanchez

Umm, Benjiboi? Calling Matt an escort, even on the talk page, is still a violation of WP:BLP. That has not been proven with a reliable source. I'm sorry if you feel I was overstepping, but I really feel that's out of line and should be removed. Would you take it back out? Thanks, -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 02:08, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Escorting does not equal prostitution and we have Sanchez's own statements as well as reliable sources that he worked as an escort and prostitute.

“

Sanchez acknowledged working as a male prostitute, but told Marine Corps Times he hasn’t had homosexual sex since he joined the Corps in 2003.

”

Again no one would care that much if he weren't now a seemingly homophobic mouthpiece for the "Republican agenda". Benji boi 02:18, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

As has been argued many times on the talk page, we don't have outside sources that say Matt was an escort. And since he has both "admitted" it and denied it, his statements cannot be counted as reliable on this issue.

You're absolutely right - I don't give a fig for him or his politics, but I do give a fig for the integrity of Wikipedia. BLP is a policy I agree strongly with, so I'd like the whole encyclopedia (including his article) to be as clear as possible of statements that can harm individuals. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 02:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I think he has harmed himself and unclear why he would make those statements to the military if untrue. Regardless they are not yet into the article so we don't have to sort out how to reconcile those conflicting sources as of yet. We do have a source that Sanchez denies being an escort or prostitute don't we? I don't recall seeing one but we should certainly find one if it's available. Benji boi 02:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It's in the Hannity & Colmes (or however that's spelt), which is the exact same place your quote comes from. He's denied it several times, both regarding the H&C thing and elsewhere. Benji, I'm very uncomfortable leaving that on the talk page given everything that's happened on the article. Would you mind removing it? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 02:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually my quote come from The Army Times's article here which seems to confirm that Sanchez did admit to being a prostitute, "It’s something that was a part of my life, but it’s in my past," he said. Benji boi 02:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Everything in that Army Times article is based on his H&C interview. An interview in which he said two opposite things. And which he later denied - for example here. All of this is stuff we've been over on the talk page - he "admitted" it once, during the Colmes interview. He has since (several times) denied it. No other sources have been found. Therefore it doesn't pass the "do no harm" clause of BLP. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 03:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Disagree,

“

In an interview Tuesday with Marine Corps Times, Sanchez confirmed his performances in such movies as “Man to Men” and “Jawbreaker” over two consecutive summers in 1991 and 1992, but said he wasn’t then, and isn’t now, gay.

During a radio interview with Fox News Channel’s Alan Colmes last week, Sanchez acknowledged working as a male prostitute, but told Marine Corps Times he hasn’t had homosexual sex since he joined the Corps in 2003.
“It’s something that was a part of my life, but it’s in my past,” he said. - The Army Times's article link here

”

And this is referenced in that denial link you posted above and, again, seems to suggest "an illustrious part-time job as a male prostitute -- facts he has acknowledged "leaving ... off my curriculum vitae." Benji boi 03:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

← Benjiboi, read that Army Times article closely - it is all from the Colmes interview. The quote you just put right there starts "During a radio interview with.. Colmes". That's from the same interview as every other discussion of this issue. And the Blumenthal article is a blog - neither the claim nor denial there are considered reliable. Please, as this is a BLP issue, please remove the "and escort" from Talk:Matt Sanchez. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 03:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Ahem, you might want to recheck that article. "In an interview Tuesday with Marine Corps Times ..." who, by the way I think he also wrote for. The prostitution statement is made, he is interviewed, again, about it and the only denial is that he "hasn’t had homosexual sex since he joined the Corps in 2003". Benji boi 03:33, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay - YOU recheck the article:

Sanchez confirmed his performances in such movies as...

Followed, in the next paragraph, by:

During a radio interview with Fox News Channel’s Alan Colmes last week, Sanchez acknowledged working as a male prostitute...

I've asked nicely now three times. I'm removing the BLP violation from the talk page. Please do not re-insert it. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 03:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Screw it. On reviewing the talk page there are three dozen statements about escorting. I give up. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 03:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

From: Duralde, A. (2008). The Sissy Awards. The Advocate. Issue 1000 (Jan15, 2008), pp. 56-59:

"After he posed for pictures with the sulfur-reeking Ann Coulter and took his conservative-victim shtick to Fox News, it turned out Sanchez was already a celebrity in gay circles - as mon-on-man porn star Rod Majors and as (shades of Jeff Gannon) an escort."

This sentence is quoted in its entirity. No qualification follows this statement. It was published in print by a third-party source. I have a PDF of the article, directly from The Advocate, and this is a verbatim quote. Why can't we use this to end the escort debate. We note the quote above (or maybe the entire thing, which allows the anti-Coulter perspective of the publication to be seen clearly), and also note Matt's statements have been reported in Marine Times (etc.), that he has since denied them. Jay*Jay (talk) 10:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

While I usually like using the Advocate as a resource (and the article is here, by the way), are you seriously considering a fluff piece about "Sissy Awards 2007" as a reliable source? Would you also like to add "Devil" to Pope Benedict XVI's article, since that's in the story as well?

Benjiboi, please again consider taking out the escort phrase from your comment on the talk page. I know it's discussed elsewhere, but I'm very uncomfortable with how close that comes to a BLP violation and outright slander.-- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 15:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Satyr, this whole debate has little to do with reliable sources in any sensible way. The notion that WP is under any legal threat from MS for using the H&C interview material (whilst noting subsequent denials) is unjustifiable. Here we have a source that protects WP legally, because we are simply reporting what another source says. Is it a good source? No - we've already got one of those, and it's been rejected. The question is whether this source meets the letter of policy. Please explain why you believe I am in error about this. Also, do you seriously believe that The Advocate would have printed this if it thought MS had any hope of suing over this statement? BTW, on the Pope suggestion - nice change in capitalisation; pity it changes the meaning. Jay*Jay (talk) 16:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Jay*, my whole point is in respect to WP:BLP. We have one instance of him saying he was an escort, several instances of him saying he wasn't. All other reports about his being an escort are shaky at best and plain rumors for the most part. For us to include information about any part of that situation, we have to hold ourselves to the highest standards, which means the best sources. And per BLP, saying he was an escort (even on the talk page) is irresponsible. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, we have Matt himself saying he was in the Salon piece he wrote and on the H & C interview; we also have lots of blogs (mostly non-usable but some borderline), The Advocate, The Army Times et al and Adult Video News. I'm uncleat which sources we have stating he wasn't but (yech!) will force myself to listen to the H&C interview if he indeed does later deny his own statements. I'm really in no rush but at some point we should sort out what sources we have, vet them and introduce an appropriate sentence. Benji boi 01:32, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, Matt didn't say he was an escort in the Salon piece. He said he wouldn't deny it, which may be splitting hairs, but there ya go. I've just put together User:SatyrTN/Matt sources. I'd be interested in any other sources you have to add to that. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 03:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your table but would feel more comfortable if the thesis wasn't "to show that there are no reliable sources saying that Sanchez is or was an escort." Benji boi 00:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Prove me wrong. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 00:54, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not interested in proving you anything at the moment. If you're so determined that he's never been an escort and prostitute then good luck with that. Benji boi 00:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

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