User talk:Bendavid42

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Contents 1 Joseph Simpson 2 Alexander Robertson 3 Robert Mark 4 Joseph Simpson disambiguation

[edit] Joseph Simpson

The problem is that we need reliable print or online sources to reference facts and the only such source at the moment is The Times, which says he was dismissed. Since he was your brother and you presumably know what you're talking about I won't presume to change it back again, but a source would be useful. Cheers. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the problem. I suspect The Times would have had it from local Rhodesian press. I can say with certainty that my brother told me that he resigned - His BSAP Record of service may still be in family archives, but will take considerable time to locate as these are in store. If I can get hold of this I will confirm, but do not particularly want to side track the article on my father.

In deference to your position, I have modified the text again in a way which I trust you will find meets the bill. I think the integrity of your article is sustained in this and the last rendering as the title of The Times article flags up the issue.

As a point of interest my brother was a HK Police Research Officer (staff post equivalent to Superintendent) on his retirement. I also suspect you can have comfort from the fact that he is unlikely to have been able to enlist in the RHKP if he had been dismissed from the BSAP.

I lived at my parents' home in 1963/4. There was certainly no personal intent by my father to retire then; hence the small change I made in the subsequent para. He was not seriously thinking about retirement till a few months before his death, when both my parents visited me in Gloucestershire, with a view to leasing a property near there.

I have a large scrapbook of my father's at my home, mostly press cuttings around his athletic and police career achievements till wartime. If it is OK with you, I will add to the record occasionally, when I have a chance to dig into the scrap book. regards. --Bendavid42 (talk) 13:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

That's fine. I wrote the article, as with my other biographies of senior Met officers, predominantly using articles in The Times, with some additions from The Official Encyclopedia of Scotland Yard (which is sometimes contradictory - in these cases I have usually preferred The Times as a more reliable source, although, as you have proved, even that is not always 100% accurate). Any additions, as with anything else on Wikipedia, would be welcomed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I have made some minor additions to the article, regarding a memorial service and plaque in St Pauls. I will check dates etc - I have some copies of the Met magazine 'The Job' relating to these events, which I could use for reference. Regards --Bendavid42 08:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I am pleased to say that I have now obtained documents that confirm that my brother resigned and was not dismissed from BSAP. His career history shown in these numerous documents is as follows:

RAF Cranwell, Flight cadet; enlisted 8 Jan 1958, discharged 6 Sept 1959; withdrew from training at own request; commended by Sqn Ldr R H Petch '.. for qualities of courage, determination and a very high sense of duty...'

BSAP; appointed 30 Nov 1959, discharged 28 Jun 1963; resigned of own volition - 'termination of service {approved} by reason of his resignation'. A Discharge Certificate signed by the Commissioner dated 28 Jun 1963 is also to hand.

1st Battalion Rhodesian Light Infantry; enlisted 15 Jul 1963, Discharged 31 Oct 1963; reason - medical (knee injury); Final assessment recommends 'employment that requires intelligence' and refers to a 'desire to be of service' signed by Lt Col {unreadable}, Commanding Officer.

Department of Internal Affairs (Bikita District Office); resigned in March 1964, because of imminent political change (UDI). Letter of acceptance signed by Provincial Commissioner Neal Robertson 31 Mar 1964.

Royal/Hong Kong Police; joined 1965 as Inspector, promoted to Chief Inspector Feb 1975, civilianised 1975, awarded 30 years' Meritorious Service Certificate 1995, compulsorily retired as Police Research Officer due to HK constitutional change arrangements in Apr 1995. {letter from Assistant Commissioner R A Steele refers}; a further letter dated 12 Apr 1995 from Police Civil Secretary S L Lord states '...you have made a substantial and lasting contribution to Special Branch and to the Force as a whole...'

In the light of the above I will revert to my former position of describing the Times article as inaccurate. Please feel free to edit the wording further in empathy with the above.

[edit] Alexander Robertson

Hello again. I don't think the logic is particularly strange. The status of individuals on succession tables refers to their status at the time of the succession referred to. I'm not really sure how that's strange logic. Regards. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if that is the rule then that's fine. Robertson was not awarded a knighthood till just before he retired. So I bow to that. I had assumed that the rule would be the status at the time of their appointment to the post held by the subject of the article not at the time of the succession by the subject of the article. So I guess it's my logic that's at fault. Regards. PS, I'm struggling to find a way to upload photos using a Firefox browser... the WP help is a bit 'general'. Probably my logic again... --Bendavid42 (talk) 17:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Mark

Incidentally the accuracy of the Press can be shown to be patchy elsewhere - Philip Johnston's tirade against Commissioner Ian Blair in The Daily Telegraph 'NewsReview' 27 Oct 2007 states 'It was only in 1972 that Sir Robert Mark became the first Commissioner to have risen through the ranks, after starting out as constable'. As reported elsewhere including your article, the first was Sir Joseph Simpson, and I believe the second was Sir John Waldron (though I have been unable to track his immediate post-Hendon career), making Robert Mark the third.

--Bendavid42 (talk) 17:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Robert Mark was in actual fact the first officer to hold all ranks from constable to commissioner, which is why he's often described as being the first to rise through the ranks, but it's still inaccurate as you say. -- Necrothesp (talk) 18:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I see the (apparantly weak) argument for this 'first'. In fact RM's career path followed those of many who served in the war years and who, most appropriately, used 'fast track' career routes. From the 'Official Encyclopedia of Scotland Yard' (OESY) his career path does not appear to have included the rank of sergeant. He was, nonetheless a Commissioner of note as I have attempted to portray in my closing sentences in my edits today of the article about him. I am surprised that the OESY does not mention the GoodYear departure. It seemed quite extraordinary to me at the time, but I am sure any payment for the advertisements would have gone to charity.

--Bendavid42 (talk) 23:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Joseph Simpson disambiguation

Hello again. I think the way to go is to create a Joseph Simpson (disambiguation) page. I would keep your father's article as is, as he is the best-known of the Joseph Simpsons, and disambiguate the others by putting a descriptor in parentheses (e.g. Joseph Simpson (Quaker). Dates are not recommended disambiguators. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I will explore this. regards --Bendavid42 (talk) 22:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)