Talk:Benjamin "Pap" Singleton

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Move to Benjamin "Pap" Singleton. Interesting debate, although not much voting; some of this is covered at WP:NCP#Nick names, pen names, stage names, cognomens but not clearly enough. I'll try to ammend the policy to make it clear. I think that StudierMalMarburg demonstrated that he's most commonly referred with "Pap" in the given sources (and a quick glance at them confirms that). Leaving it as-is, however, leaves an ambiguity whether Pap is his middle name, part of the surname, or something else. Joe "King" Oliver is one precedent; see also Vladimir Petrović "Pižon" move log and "what links here" from talk pages. Discussion is to be continued on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (people). Duja^► 09:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Benjamin Pap Singleton → Benjamin Singleton — Naming conventions. This was already moved from Benjamin "Pap" Singleton for the same reason, and unilaterally moved to the malformed name. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 00:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

As I tried to explain to you earlier, when you changed the name of the original article, the name "Pap" is not a conventional nickname. It is how this man was identified in his own lifetime and it is how educated historians identify him. If you'd take the time to actually look at the bibliography section in this article, you'll see that historians routinely use the name "Pap" in their titles. This is the second time you've gone after this article, and why you target this one while ignoring articles such as Joe "King" Oliver and James Bronterre O'Brien, "Bronterre" was a pen name, is mystifying to me. Why not go after Jimmy Carter? After all, the man's name is James Earl Carter. "Jimmy" was his nickname. The point is, many articles use so-called nicknames because that is how the people were known during their careers and lifetimes. Changing someone's name because of the claim that some rule about "nicknames" is inflexible makes no sense. StudierMalMarburg 15:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Support. A nickname does not belong in the page name unless it's a last resort way of distinguishing two otherwise identical names. Firstname/lastname is adequate if there are no conflicts due to other people of the same name. --AliceJMarkham 02:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose for the reasons I gave above. "Pap" was not an ordinary nickname. It was the name he was known by in his lifetime and it is the name that educated historians identify him by. Pap is the name researchers use when looking for him. It always flabbergasts me that people who have not read anything on the topic can come in here and alter a long-established historical precedent. I would also add that there is another Benjamin Singleton. Although no one has yet written a Wikipedia article on him, Benjamin Singleton (1788-1853) was a famous Australian explorer and town-founder. StudierMalMarburg 15:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

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I have alerted the editor who moved the page to Benjamin Pap Singleton, and I think it would be a good idea to wait until he or she has had a chance to provide feedback before completing this move request. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know about the debate. I think the whole thing is downright ridiculous since there are redirects coming to this article from all variations of his name (i.e., Benjamin Singleton; Pap Singleton; Benjamin "Pap" Singleton; "Pap" Singleton) Since all variations point here, renaming this to satisfy one person doesn't make sense. Also, I understand the Wikipedia rule about nicknames, but as I said above, this is how many people were known during their careers and during their lifetimes. Altering their commonly known names to satisfy a supposedly "inflexible" rule is nonsense. StudierMalMarburg 15:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay If there is another noteworthy Benjamin Singleton, then this should be moved according to the conventions about disambiguation. I'm not asking it be moved to satisfy one person, I'm asking it be moved to conform with the rules already established for naming articles; why would you move it from its proper name in the first place? Furthermore, why would you move it to an ugrammatical name like "Benjamin Pap Singleton?" Lots of persons are known by lots of nicknames, so it's impossible to decide where some persons should go unless we follow a standard, rather than arbitrarily decide to include a nickname sometimes (e.g. see professional wrestler articles where they have several pseudonyms; they redirect to their given, legal name.) -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 16:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

First, I created this article as Benjamin Pap Singleton because that is how the man was, and currently is, known. It was you who moved, and are again tyring to move, the article from its proper name. All I did was restore it. Once again, if you insist on a so-called "standard" then why are you obsessing about this particular article when many, many others are similar. Many people, Pap Singleton among them, were and are better known by their nicknames. That is how professional researchers look for them. That is why Joe "King" Oliver has King in his name -- in quotation marks, I might add, which is what you originally objected to in "Pap" Singleton article. This is why James Bronterre O'Brien has "Bronterre" in his name. Because people knew him better by his nickname of "Bronterre." This is why the Jimmy Carter article uses the nickname of James Earl Carter. Because that's how people knew him and that's how researchers look for him. It is the same with Benjamin Pap Singleton. You keep going back to the broken record of "following a standard," but the standard you insist upon for this article isn't being followed in others. Finally, calling his name, Benjamin Pap Singleton, grammatically incorrect simply proves that you have never read any scholarly books or articles about the man and really don't know anything about him. That was his name! If you don't like the grammatical sound of it then I'm sorry, but that's just the way it was (and is). Therefore, I think it's time to let it be. There are enough redirects pointing here that no one is going to be confused. StudierMalMarburg 19:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright I've no vested interest in arguing your scholarship on Singleton; I frankly don't care, and I freely admit that I'm completely ignorant about him. That having been said, what I do know is the naming conventions on Wikipedia. The examples you mention should all be fixed, except Jimmy Carter per the most common name convention, as he is a well-known figure (unlike, say, Mr. Singleton.) I don't doubt that he is called "Pap" a whole lot, and I'm sure that's an endearing nickname, but that's not how his article should be titled. It especially shouldn't be named "Benjamin Pap Singleton" - that is, without quote marks - since that implies his proper middle name was Pap, which it wasn't. Throwing out allegations about sounding like a broken record is cheap and vacuous, as I could say the same thing about you; let's discuss substantive reasons instead of potshots, Mal. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 19:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me answer each one of your points. (1) Naming Conventions. I'm well-aware of the naming conventions, and like you correctly say for Jimmy Carter, he is known by his "most common name convention." (2) It is the same with Benjamin Pap Singleton. This is more than a simple "endearing nickname." It is how the man was known in his lifetime and it is how he is known among professional researchers. (3) Your objection to the lack of quotation marks in "Pap" is particularly curious since you are the one who removed them. The original article was entitled: Benjamin "Pap" Singleton. If you had left it alone in the first place, that is how it would look today, with all redirects going to that naming. It would be just like Joe "King" Oliver, which no one seems to have any objection to. (4) I'm sorry that you took the phrase "broken record" personally. It wasn't meant that way. All I meant by it is that you never really responded (until now) to any of my "substantive reasons" for keeping the name intact. All you did was keep going back to the "naming conventions." I do offer my apologies for the misunderstanding. In the end, the bottom line is that if this article were to have the most common name convention that Singleton was known by, the article would be entitled Old Pap Singleton because that's how people addressed him, just like people address James Earl Carter as Jimmy. In his heyday he was known as Pap far more than as Benjamin, and the title should reflect both names. StudierMalMarburg 22:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.