Talk:Benjamin Feingold

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[edit] Content sources

The biographical content on this page comes from the Feingold Organization's website, but I believe that this does not violate copyright, as I used the facts presented there without cutting and pasting, and gave a link to their website. Much of the other information comes from "quackwatch.org". It was released (on request) under the GFDL. --Slashme 05:41, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shulae's edits

Hi Shulae! I did not revert your edits because I think that your point of view should not be heard, but some bad, polemical, non-encyclopedic edits had been made before you started. Please try again! --Slashme 06:05, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The entire section lifted from the Quackwatch site is hostile and slanderous. This is not a matter of opinion -- they certainly cannot prove any of their points. To make themselves look credible, they cite studies alright -- but, for example, they cite the Rowe & Rowe study as proof that only a very few children responde to the diet. Well, now, I have actually READ the study and 75% of the children responded to the diet, and more than 86% of them deteriorated upon challenge with a single coloring. Nevertheless, whether or not Quackwatch is accurate, this is a BIOGRAPHY page. Dr. Feingolds BIOGRAPHY belongs on it. All this detail about the Feingold diet does NOT belong here. I was the one who tried removing it; unfortunately, I am a beginner, and perhaps did not do it correctly. I would be happy for guidance.
Oh -- one more thing. I do have a nice picture of Dr. Feingold but I do not know how to provide it. It is currently on our website and you have permission to use it. Please find it at http://www.feingold.org/bio.html ... I also have a picture in color if you prefer. Please let me know how to send it.Shulae 19:14, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about the revert. Someone else made a whole lot of bad edits before you arrived, so it was an impossible task to sort out what was what. Please try again, and forgive me for the unilateral revert. As for posting the image: Check the help pages on uploading images and wikipedia image formatting --Slashme 07:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] paragraph

I have added a sentence to the top of the quackwatch.org sections. I had painstakingly edited all the paragraphs to make them factually accurate, but you removed it. I had previously removed all the paragraphs about the diet -- they don't belong on a biography page anyhow. But they came back. It seems everything I do to this page is reversed. Perhaps I am not doing something correctly? Please advise. Shulae

The edit you made was non-encyclopedic in tone. Let me quote:
This is marvelous - yet the scientists with ties to the drug companies and the additive companies would have you believe it is the DIET that doesn't work if it cannot be undone by a small amount of a single challenge of their choice.
That is polemical in tone, and not appropriate for an encyclopedia. See below for my suggestions on how to achieve consensus. --Slashme 07:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Hi Shulae!

You appear to be an advocate for the Feingold association, and well versed in the subject matter. Your inputs are useful, and we need to balance out the article. To this end, I have created a project page containing your edits at Benjamin_Feingold/Objections where we can work on a new version of the article. In the meantime, I have placed a tag at the top of the main article warning users that the neutrality of the article is under dispute. I don't have much time to work on the issue at the moment, but I think that the fastest way to get the biographical article sorted out and neutral would be (as you seem to suggest in your commentary) to create a page on the Feingold Diet as such, and link to it from this article. Please note that I am working in good faith, and I also want to get a balanced view in Wikipedia. --Slashme 07:43, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] easiest suggestion

Hi Slashme,

I doubt you can easily combine the point of view of both the Feingold Association and the Quackwatch organization into anything reasonable, since their entire intention is to vilify the use of alternatives. Notice on their own website http://www.quackwatch.org that the page you have in your encyclopedia in in their "quackery" section. It is not a neutral article; it is not a factual article; it is not an honest article.

My suggestion would be -- since this is a biography page -- to limit the information on it to biography. Why is all this other information necessary anyway? Certainly in his long life, this is not Dr. Feingold's main contribution to society. How about the fact that he worked under the man who coined the term "allergy?" It is hard for us today to remember a time when we didn't know that people have allergies -- and in large part he is the person we can thank for enlightening us. His work on fleas and haptens showed that there is more than one kind of allergy. Low molecular weight chemicals (like flea venom and synthetic colorings) cannot cause allergy on their own, but only in combination with larger proteins. In some cases, allergic complexes are formed (IgG reactions) and in others pharmacological reactions (side effects as in drugs) happen. I do not know enough to write in depth on any of this, but would have to refer you to his textbook on allergy. If you read Dr. Feingold's book "Why Your Child is Hyperactive" written by request of Random House, what is surprising is that rather than sounding dated after 30 years, it actually reads like prophesy. He described the recent (at that time) changes in the American food supply and predicted what would happen if we continued down that path. We did, and what he foretold has materialized exactly as he said. It is a scary thing to see.--Shulae

Hi Shulae,

I have followed your suggestion, and moved the sections on the Feingold Diet to a new page, and also moved the project page to Feingold diet/Objections. I will now proceed to strip that page of most of the biographical content.

I have also removed the POV tag, as most of the contentious matter should now be at the new page. Please check that you agree with this. If you don't agree, feel free to replace the tag and discuss. --Slashme 17:53, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] photo of Dr. Feingold

I have uploaded a photo of Dr. Feingold. My apologies that I do not know how to insert it into the text at the right of the first paragraph, where I would have chosen to have it. Perhaps someone else can move it? Shulae

OK, thanks for the photo! I have fixed the formatting. One down on the todo-list, two to go. --Slashme 11:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] for slashme

Hi David,

I think that simply removing most of the information not biographical, and leaving just the one paragraph describing the conflict is a big improvement.

If you could possibly make one more improvement on that page, I would appreciate it. Children and Adults with Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (CHADD) and National Attention Deficit Disorder Association have no connection with Dr. Feingold and really do not belong on this page at all. Of course, they do have connection with ADHD and should be on those pages. Would you mind removing them from here? Or explain to me your reasoning for keeping them on? If it is because they are part of the controversy, then they would belong on the Feingold diet main page, still not on here, I would think. It is not a matter of balance; the Feingold website is uniquely belonging to Dr. Feingold, so it has a place on the biography page.

The NIH statement is from the 1998 consensus development conference, long after Dr. Feingold died, so it is not really connected to his biography, but leave it on there if you want. I will have more about it on the main article page ....

No problem. When I split the pages, I didn't check again to see what relevance they had, so I just left them in by default. --Slashme 05:32, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The odd thing is that the conflict is really not IN the scientific circles any more .... the scientists all made their point (the diet works) and the Powers That Be all made their point (they are ignoring it) .... so that's where it stands scientifically. In all the new "Abnormal Psychology" textbooks in colleges, where they used to say that the Feingold Diet was refuted, now the diet is not even mentioned -- like it never existed. The research is totally ignored. I guess that is what they do when they have no argument, but accepting it as a treatment will cost them a whole lot of money .... this is not facetious -- if a nonmedical DIET works for 75% of the kids, then who, pray tell, is going to buy all the Ritalin etc. that the drug companies have prepared? And who will need all the special schools that keep expanding? Indeed, the additive companies themselves, and the manufacturers of "fun" foods might go out of business - maybe our whole economy would collapse?

Jawellnofine.

Well, Wikipedia is doing a marvelous service (to the children, maybe not to the economy) by allowing this information to become visible here. Do not be surprised if you get pressured to refuse; that has happened before.

Well, we'll have to leave it up to peer review. If other editors come up with serious objections to the material, we will address them on the article page. If people come up with frivolous objections, we can address them on the talk page.

I will continue working on the Feingold page, including all the critic's claims too. I will do my best to be encyclopedic and cover all sides, and I will trust that you will notice any lack thereof.

I'll do my best, but it's not really my field, so I might miss stuff. But as Eric Raymond said, "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow." --Slashme 05:32, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I want to upload a couple of pictures -- and I did it already once, but forgot where to do it. Help? -- Shulae 20:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I found the upload place -- did it, hopefully correctly.
Meanwhile, I saw the categories for births and deaths 1900 and 1982 ... and Dr. Feingold is listed under Feingold diet/objections instead of his name. Could not edit. Is there a way to fix that? Thanks -- Shulae 23:25, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, my mistake. That came from the [[Category:1900 births]] and [[Category:1982 deaths]] tags that I left on the page from the Bio. --Slashme 05:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)