Talk:Bene Tleilax

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[edit] Pronunciation?

I've always wondered how you pronounce "Tleilax"

I've always thought the T was silent, making it something like "lay-lax". Is this correct?

Actual pronounciations on audio clips from Frank himself pronounce it "tlay-lax"Tleilax Master B 20:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] From WP:VFD

Template:VfD-Bene Tleixiau

[edit] Images: copyright and relevance

What's the copyright status of the images on this page? I assume they all come from Emperor: Battle for Dune.

Assuming that they're legal, I'm also not sure a couple of them are relevant: the ghola image and the face dancer image aren't particularly ghola- or face dancer-like, and I see from clicking on them that they depict, in fact, a Harkonnen infantryman and an Atreides sniper.

Excuse me for not being bold--just not certain enough to delete them without asking first. Iralith 00:02, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

yes, they are confusing... I think they should be on the game article page. Pics doesn't do the novels justice really! Delete them, I think the symbols/logos used for the various races are 21st century creations - by game boffins ... and can get canned or moved to the various relevent computa game articles. -max rspct 00:17, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I will remove those images that do not depict what is described in the paragraph alongside it. I'd be more reluctant in the removal of other images, because it might be interesting for a reader how something described is depicted in films, games, art, etc. Shinobu 14:01, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Seems sensible, but I'm still worried about the copyright situation with these images. Any insights there? Iralith 23:01, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I quote from Template:Screenshot (I didn't use the actual template because of the cat-link contained within):
This is a screenshot of a copyrighted website, video game graphic, computer program graphic, television broadcast, or film. It is believed that screenshots may be exhibited on Wikipedia under the fair use provision of United States copyright law.
If that is the way of the wiki, so be it. Shinobu 16:32, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Histories section

Is there a reference to "Xuttuh" in the original books by Frank Herbert, or is this another B.Herbert/K.Anderson creation? I don't have access to my copies of the original books at the moment. (Just to be clear, I'm one of those who doesn't regard anything not by Herbert Sr. as canonical.) RJCraig 04:12, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't recall any "xuttuh" in the original six. Justin Johnson 00:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Xuttuh comes from House Atreides. It is not canonical. Chalom 22:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] spellings

In rereading Dune 1, and Messiah, I've noticed several instances of "Bene Tleilaxu" and "axolotl tanks". Are they just typos or what? 219.77.98.22 08:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Tleilaxu = Of Bene Tleilax (you'd be wrong to write it 'Tleilaxian') 80.179.13.34 20:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion between Dune and its influences?

I'm quite worried that this page is actually a mix between what is known in Dune series (Herbert Sr. AND Herbert Jr.) plus what is just made for the games. Wouldn't it be better if the two were split in two, meaning that the Bene Tleilax page would have just data from the books, and a page named "Emperor of Dune: Tleilaxu" would have the game facts, technologies, etc? --Chalom 19:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

At the very least I would consider putting a horizontal line or other divisor between anything from the original series of books and everything that was added by others later on. That way readers have an overview of everything regarding the Tleilaxu and can easily tell what is canonical. In fact, adding references to appearances to every item seems like a sensible piece of information to me. How is this solved in articles about the other houses and Dune related items? --Rygir 08:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, the statement "The founder of the Bene Tleilax was a Master named Xuttuh" should DEFINATELY NOT be included under the heading "the original series"--that is from the "new canon"Tleilax Master B 20:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I changed the game heading and split out the Xuttuh reference into a Prelude section. TAnthony 04:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Face Dancers

Is it entirely accurate to say "with the unintended side effect of gradually becoming that person." Isn't Tuek the only person in which that happens? The face dancers that were absorbing HMs for Waff didn't have that happen, nor have we seen any other example of that. If I am missing a reference let me know, but this seems to imply that ALL of the new face dancers will eventually "become" that person, and I don't think that is accurate----Tleilax Master B

I added the word "potential" to make this result less absolute, however some research is probably required to clear this issue up one way or the other. TAnthony 04:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bijaz as Master

I've also posted this on the discussion page, but there is no definitive evidence that Bijaz is a Master. Its speculative based on the humming language and reference to "past lives" in DM. See my discussion there, I'm not sure he should be listed. Torg the Younger, Scytale (in Chapterhouse), Tylwyth Waff, and Mirlat are the only Masters specifically mentioned by name in the original Canon. ---Tleilax Master B —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.71.3.6 (talk • contribs) 12:34, 2 April 2007

You've made a good argument on Talk:Bijaz, so I've removed him as a "Notable Master", and also edited the footnotes here and at Face Dancer and ghola which also refer to him as a Master. TAnthony 21:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks TAnthony for taking the time to consider it and making the edits....---Tleilax Master B

Yo, Mastah B! You need to register an account! :) --SandChigger 04:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

OK Chig, you talked me into it! Tleilax Master B 13:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation?

What is this about?

Emperor Worm
The Bene Tleilax and the Spacing Guild were also involved in the War of Assassins and attempted to create their own leader to control the Empire which was a genetic merger between some human qualities with that of the sand worms of Dune. This monstrous beast was the Emperor Worm and would have controlled the entire empire.

Removed from article pending citation. --SandChigger 01:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It's the end-game of one of the Dune RTSs, isn't it? --Gwern (contribs) 02:00 8 April 2007 (GMT)
OK. In that case, if it's from Emperor: Battle for Dune then it was in the right place and just needs to be integrated into the article properly. (Could someone familiar with the game take care of this.) My bad...sort of. --SandChigger 06:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Axolotl vs Axlotl

I say follow the usage of the novels.

Axolotl: 2 occurrences, both in Dune Messiah
Axlotl: 47 occurrences (7 in God Emperor of Dune, 23 in Heretics of Dune, 17 in Chapterhouse Dune)

--SandChigger 09:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL, I did the research simultaneously, and made adjustments to the axlotl tank article (including a footnote on the spelling). TAnthony 17:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
It could be suggested that since a lot of time passes between the books in the series, it was originally Axolotl and over the millenia was shortened to Axlotl, much in the same way Arrakis was shortened to Rakis and Caladan to Dan. HalfShadow 22:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Then tailor the usage to the period being discussed. --SandChigger 05:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I have nothing to do with it, I'm just suggesting a possible 'solution' as such. HalfShadow 05:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tlaloc?

I don't want to start an edit war, but to me this is POV and makes no sense. Frank Herbert invented the term "Tleilaxu" in 1969's Dune Messiah, and the "Tl" similarity with the god Tlaloc is not enough to make such an unsourced connection. The fact that a character named Tlaloc is introduced in the Legends of Dune series in 2002 has nothing to do with the "origin" of the name. — TAnthonyTalk 04:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

You have to forgive my ignorance in how to post a reply here! I apologize in advance. :(
  1. The text I wrote for the article doesn't state anything as fact that is not mentioned in the literature.
  2. The novels written by Herbert's son and Kevin J. Anderson are based on notes of Herbert's...I think that to omit something prefaced as a "point of interest" from the article entirely does a disservice to wikipedia readers. At the very least, it's an interesting "coincidence". I don't want to have a "war", especially over the internet, either. I just really have to voice my opinion by saying I do disagree with the total omission of the point(s) I made.
  3. Whether or not the later Dune novels are canonical literature is also POV, in my opinion; they are based on posthumous notes, so the decision to regard them as part of the "legendarium" is a matter of personal choice. To present factual information (the Nahuatl name, the inclusion of Tlaloc in the literature, etc.) allows the reader to decide. The conjecture is included as a point of interest, not as a fact. MJK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.207.226 (talk • contribs) 09:39, April 2, 2008
Thanks for your response. I certainly believe your addition was in good faith, however I ask that you familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Describing points of view. Basically, these policies establish that editors may not include their personal opinions, analysis or research in an article (regardless of how correct they may be), and that any interpretations or conclusions made must have a reliable source outside Wikipedia. In other words, you cannot simply assert that there is a similarity or connection between "Tleilaxu" and "Tlaloc" unless a published author (book, magazine, reliable non-fan website) has also made this connection. I am a huge advocate of presenting quotes from the texts and letting readers interpret for themselves when it comes to issues requiring such interpretation, but in this case I find the connection so vague that I cannot imagine any reference that would seem appropriate.
The prequels/sequels are indeed based on the notes, but there is little information available regarding the specifics, so we cannot make assumptions. BH/KJA have basically stated that Herbert left behind an extensive "outline" and other writings, but there is nothing to indicate that a) he named the Legends character Tlaloc and b) this naming has anything to do with the Tleilaxu. Your making the connection based on "similarity" between words is like suggesting the characters Lady Jessica (original series) and Janess (Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune) are related to the mythological Jocasta (mother of Oedipus). — TAnthonyTalk 18:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
(We have only their word that the books are based on materials by Frank Herbert, no actual proof of it. Ooh, look, pix of floppies! And a penny!) --SandChigger (talk) 10:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)