Talk:Bendery

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Contents 1 deleted link 2 Ancient settlement 3 Moldovan Cyrillic: Тигина 4 Petro Poroshenko 5 Name 6 Historical accuracy 7 Requested move 7.1 Alternative proposal 8 Data 9 Continue? 10 Name change in the 90s 11 Official name as per Moldavian law 12 Outside but informed article naming opinion 13 Naming 14 A bit 'o Googling 15 Let's make it clear 15.1 For Bender and Bender (disambiguation) 15.2 Against Bender and Bender (disambiguation) 15.3 Neutral 16 Geoff's Proposal 16.1 Support 16.2 Oppose 16.3 Neutral 17 Naming Conventions 18 Name Possibilities 18.1 Discussion of Name Possibilities 19 Bendery 20 "Tighina" is more often used than "Bender" (as said by User:Olahus) 21 Proposal Mark II 22 Page protected 23 Consensus for Bendery 24 Statement of Title Solution 24.1 Comments 25 moving page 26 Turkish name 27 The city name used by the web community

[edit] deleted link

I have deleted link to http://bendery.ru.ru/, because this is only self-advertisement. That site doesn't contain any useful information. It has abusive lexicon and tries to insult russian users. Zserghei 21:00, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

You know, dear offended Russian Zserghei, Bendery is not a place for Russian users ;) there is nothing to see for them ;) Site http://bendery.ru.ru/ shows inside picture of Russian occupied Transnistria. There is a very interesting video material about Stalinist regime in Transnistria. Also there is a very nice picture of me :)

EvilAlex 172.201.186.169 16:34, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear Alex, encyclopedia is not a place neither for self-promotion nor for insults. --Zserghei 18:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient settlement

The following piece removed:

"A settlement has existed at the confluence of the Dniester and Bîc rivers since the 2nd century, subsequently growing and coming under the successive rules of Kiev, Moldavia, Genoa, Turkey, Russia and Romania. "

It contradicts, e.g. Russian wikiarticle and not confirmed in other language versions. mikka (t) 03:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Moldovan Cyrillic: Тигина

Who cares about Moldovan Cyrillic? The official language is Romanian. Romanian is written in Latin alphabet. Moldovan is written in Latin alfabet. According to the law it is forbidden to write in other way. Bonaparte talk 07:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Not according to the government which makes the laws of Tighina. That's not the government of Rep Moldova, but rather the gov't of the Pridniestrovian Moldavian Republic. They are the ones who are in real control. Maybe Rep Moldova "owns" it, but they don't have control over it. --Node 11:25, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually according to the 1992 treaty the city has a special status (the same status is enjoyed officially by Dubasari city) and both RM and PMR have the right to keep their respective authorities there (under an over-all Russian "peacekeeping force of course").

Another point I wanted to bring up is the latest census. Does anyone actually have a ref. for that?Constantzeanu 05:01, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I have access to the 2004 census data. What would you like me to add into this article? - Mauco 23:05, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Petro Poroshenko

As far as I know he was born in Bolhrad, Odessa oblast.--AndriyK 21:50, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

That's what the German wikipedia article on him says. bogdan 21:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

I propose using either the official name which the city itself currently uses (Bendery) or else the most commonly used name in English (Bender), while still keeping a clear mention that Republic of Moldova refers to the city as Tighina. - Mauco 23:05, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is Bender the most common English name? I don't think the city has a naturalised English name, and I don't really see that Bender is used any more than Tighina. Ronline ✉ 11:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The three most important English-language encyclopedias: Britannica, Encarta and Columbia use the name Tighina. bogdan 11:22, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I would say Tighina tends to be the most commonly-accepted name. Bender is the Turkish name, AFAIK. Ronline ✉ 12:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The city administration calls the city Bendery, as do most of the inhabitants. Traditionally, in English, this has been rendered as Bender. The use of the name Tighina (in English language literature) is a recent development, as the city was officially renamed Tighina after Moldovan independence. The fact that this name is now used in English - to the extent that it is - is similar to, for instance, the way that the English-language commentators at the 2006 Winter Olympics kept referring to Turin as "Torino" (its original Italian name, but not its name in English). And: In the case of Bender/Tighina there is an added twist. The renaming decision was taken by Moldova, but the territory forms part of the de facto independent republic of Transnistria and the city's authorities never recognized the validity of the renaming. Depending on one's point of view, an equally convincing case can be made for both names - with each side explaining why their name is the official name - and the definite name will probably not be settled until the disputed status of Transnistria is also settled. - Mauco 18:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Was it really renamed by Moldovan authorities? In the 2001 year Law on administrative-territorial organisation of the Republic of Moldova[1] the city is called Bender. And in the two previous versions of the law, adopted in 1994[2] and 1998[3], the city is referred to exclusively as Bender. Tighina variant is not even mentioned. Judging from this, the official Moldovan name of the city is Bender, not Tighina.--Imrek 16:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The sentence ".. names Бендер/Bender, Бендéры/Bendery, and Бендéри/Bendery, in Moldovan with cyrillic, Russian and Ukrainian, respectively" makes little sense to me. Does the write think that "cyrillic" is another language, different from both Russian and Ukrainian? If not, what does the "respectively" mean? Maproom (talk) 10:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Amending. These are three names, each with Latin and Cyrillic spelling; one name for each language. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Moldova kept the name Bender after it became independent in 1991: see Law 764-XV from December 27, 2001 on administrative-territorial organisation of the Republic of Moldova, Monitorul Oficial al Republicii Moldova, no. 16/53, December 29, 2001 (subsequent modifications taken into account)

[edit] Historical accuracy

"In 1713, the fortress was the site of a skirmish (kalabalik) between Charles XII of Sweden, who had taken refuge there with Cossack leader Ivan Stepanovich Mazepa after their failed attack on Russia, and Turks who wished to take him hostage and exploit the political difficulties of central Europe." from History section.

Mazepa died in 1709. Maybe it was another Cossack leader? Perhaps Pylyp Orlyk? I will have to look this up, but if anyone can double check this first, please go ahead.--Riurik 04:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Continue?

In ref to Xasha's and Illythr's comments: Tighina/Bender or Bender/Tighina was a mere matter of taste, or even less, a random choice. But Bender (Tighina), and on the same tokken Tighina (Bender), have an advantage: we can actually name the article Bender (Tighina). We can not name it Tighina/Bender (WP would understand a sub-article). My conclusion: you both think possible a variant that contains both names. (Life proof that honest discussion leads somewhere.) Dc76\^talk 15:50, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, the brackets in names usually serve for clarification, like Death (band). I am not aware of the bracketed part denoting an alternative name. Besides, this is exactly the problem here - it's hard to determine which name's the more widespread one - with Bender being official, Tighina being used by major encyclopedia... --Illythr (talk) 16:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

You mentioned exactly the problems with it. Let's think now like this: are these problems bigger or smaller than the ones with other names? I am more concerned with the usual meaning of brackets as clarifications. For order, if nothing more logical exists, we can ask an uninvolved person to throw a coin. Dc76\^talk 16:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia already thought about such problems, and gave us the answer: "If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local official name".(WP:NCGN)Xasha (talk) 20:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I personally think there's some wiggle room here. Where there are competing names, the reason for picking one is: "Experience shows that the straightforward solution of a double or triple name is often unsatisfactory; there are all too many complaints that one or the other name should be first." I would venture there could be sufficient support for "Bender (Tighina)" without wailing and gnashing of teeth. I think the order (based on our various searches et al.) for primary (secondary) is sufficiently conclusive. On something like "Kiev" versus "Kyiv", it's transliteration of the same name, so a bit of a different animal.

   I did take a look in King's The Moldovans, and Bender is the preferred entry in the index, Tighina in the index says see Bender, BUT, the first time King refers to Bender in the book, he references it as "Bender (Tighina)". So we can say that we're following nomenclature used by one of the most respected references on Moldova as opposed to just an arbitrary group synthesis. —PētersV (talk) 02:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think is a good thing to create a precedent. Also, using a parenthetical name may confuse the reader. According to Wikipedia:Naming_conventions(city_names), the Y in a title of the form X(Y) stands for the higher level administrative division. They suggest to use parenthetical names only in historical context, but this article is clearly about the city in the present.Xasha (talk) 08:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

In our case there is no denying that Tighina is widely accepted in English. Dc76\^talk 20:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Define widely. Bender is also more widely accepted than Tighina.Xasha (talk) 21:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Problem is that major encyclopedia tend to conform to the widely held view (of their target audiences, that is). Take a look at the Russian talk page of this article. I wonder if that anon's post holds some ground. --Illythr (talk) 21:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

But news agencies and major English-speaking governments prefer Bender. I've never heard of that international organization, but I've seen their Russian site has a forum (although it didn't seem very active). Someone could ask if they do such things and where could we find an official confirmation. However, it would be strange if in 17 years that organization didn't notice no real change took place. (But nothing is impossible, see the Columbia Encyclopedia)Xasha (talk) 21:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

On a different side note I do believe it is incorrect to call the fortress "Tighina", seeing as how it was built by the Turks after the capture of this customs post. --Illythr (talk) 21:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Re-constructed. There was a fortress there before. :Dc76\^talk 21:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

All I found was a mention of a customs post, not a fortress. --Illythr (talk) 21:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be right. Ion Nistor mentions a fortified custom post, not a fortress. No wonder Ottomans did not spend much time demolishing it. Dc76\^talk 18:18, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Kinda amusing, btw, that not only do Moldovan authorities call it Tighina, but they also made a typo on the 100 lei banknote depicting the fortress. Thighina, yeah! :-)

[edit] Name change in the 90s

Tighina was use officialy sometimes after 1994, and before 2001, but with a high degree of certitude in 1998 (the 1998 law mentions the municipality, and not the city itself). I know there was a site having a large part of the Moldovan legislative corpus, but I can't find it right now. Could someone help?Xasha (talk) 20:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Try this: [12]. :Dc76\^talk 20:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

This one is adopted in 1990. This one - in 1994. I am not aware of any changes since then. --Illythr (talk) 20:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

very good links:Dc76\^talk 21:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Imrek provided them above over a year ago, actually. Before that I was sure "Tighina"'s the official one. --Illythr (talk) 21:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

From what I've seen, only the county was named Tighina, the city was always called Bender.Xasha (talk) 22:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

This fact makes the article from the Columbia Encyclopedia unreliable (adding to the ridiculous claim that Turks called it Bendery).Xasha (talk) 00:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Here I found this: Dc76\^talk 18:32, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

4. Cetatea Bender

Această cetate a fost zidită de genovezi în timpul stăpânirii lor pe malurile Mării Negre şi se numea Tighin, iar în urmă, în epoca stăpânirii turcilor în Basarabia, cetatea a fost luată de Mo­hamed al II-lea, care a numit-o Bendere, adică: „Eu vreau“. Ce­tatea a fost reconstruită şi mărită de turci, spre a conserva în ea proviantul garnizoanei, adăugând lângă cetate câteva sate numite raiaua Benderului, al cărui guvernor era un paşa. În timpul războiului ruşilor cu turcii, această cetate a fost de trei ori cu­cerită când de unii, când de alţii. La 1789 ajunse iarăşi în pose­siunea ruşilor, iar după tratatul de pace de la Iaşi, ruşii au întors-o din nou turcilor. În grabă, însă, după o discordie politică, fu re­dată ruşilor, care, întărind-o, făcură un punct strategic impunător şi însemnat în evoluţiile militare, însemnând trecerea peste Dunăre.

Cronica istorică povesteşte că pe locul Benderului a fost odi­nioară tabăra lui Darius Histape, domnitorul Persiei. Aceeaşi cronică spune că divul Traian a zidit peste Nistru un pod de pia­tră, ale cărui urme şi astăzi se văd. Lângă cetatea Benderului, viteazul Carol al XII-lea, regele şvezilor, fugind cu rămăşiţele ar­matei sale bătute de Petru cel Mare la Poltava, s-a aşezat pe acel şes întărindu-se. Iar izgonit de ruşi, abia a putut fi mântuit de turci, care cu o armată întreagă i-au venit întru ajutor, luându-l sub scutul lor.

Astfel dar pe arena ţării Moldovei s-au adaus şi ciolanele perşilor, turcilor, şvezilor din nord, peste osemintele polonilor, tătarilor, cazacilor etc., etc., încât cu drept cuvânt putem zice că acest pământ este un mozaic de oase alcătuite de coasa morţii ce-şi alesese reşedinţa în această provincie fatală pentru români...

(Constantin Stamati, middle 19th century)

I doubt someone could consider this a reliable source. Xasha (talk) 19:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

To cite a well-known phrase from a movie, you must be high on drugs to call Constantin Stamati non-reliable. What next? Darwin, Einstein, or Heisenberg non-reliable? :) Dc76\^talk 20:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Bendery (Tiahynia; Romanian: Tighina). Map: VII-10. City (1981 pop 108,000) in Bessarabia, now in Moldova, a port on the Dniester River and a major railway junction. In the past it was an important strategic point for crossing the Dniester. In the 12th century the Genovese built a fortress on the location of the Slavic settlement, and at the beginning of the 16th century Bendery came under Turkish rule.

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/B/E/Bendery.htm

BTW, the Genoese held a lot of trade posts and fortresses in the area, including Akkerman and Vicina.

bogdan (talk) 22:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I kinda wonder, how come the earliest written mention of the locality was on a 1408 grant by Alexander the Good, yet it was built by the Genoese 200 years before that? --Illythr (talk) 01:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Moldova kept the name Bender after it became independent in 1991: see Law 764-XV from December 27, 2001 on administrative-territorial organisation of the Republic of Moldova, Monitorul Oficial al Republicii Moldova, no. 16/53, December 29, 2001 (subsequent modifications taken into account)

According to most sources, the name of the city is Tighina. Marc KJH (talk) 16:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Bonaparte! I see they allowed you to run free this time over. Perhaps you are learning to be less obvious? Or just more careful to avoid your connoisseurs? :-) --Illythr (talk) 01:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is a map from moldovan government website with the name Bender. And here is the law in the language of the state, again, from government site. There cannot be discussion against official law of the county which confirms long-established name. `'Míkka>t 17:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe so, but just a month ago, no consensus was reached on a move after a discussion. So how come the page was moved now with scant discussion - almost unilaterally, in fact? And, might I add, Bender isn't that long-established, and the fact it's official isn't of overriding importance - see Burma. Biruitorul (talk) 03:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Because he's more important than everyone else here, obviously! He went and moved the page despite the proposal's outcome, without any discussion here. First abuse of administrator status: He then tried to threaten that I would be blocked for reverted his changes because I was talking part in an "edit war", as if he somehow was not. Second abuse of administrator status: He protected the page despite the policy here Wikipedia:Protection_policy#Move_protection "administrators should avoid favoring one name over another, and protection should not be considered an endorsement of the current name." He previously put here on the talk page: "This is the official name of the city, according to the evidence presented. Period". (He has now deleted that, but it obviously invalidates his protection of the page). Third abuse of administrator status: once his protection was deemed to be disallowed, he merely got one of his admin chums to protect his preferred version, thus avoiding the prohibition... for several weeks. Anyone with any manners would open up a new debate here, perhaps try to reach compromise? or even consensus? Administrators should not be rude, unruly and disrespectful. Rapido (talk) 08:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

You've been replied to on the complaint page as I see. Don't be surprised with the reaction - circumventing a move protection by copypasting content has discredited your position rather throughly. Anyhow, whatever your opinion on the name may be, why did you do that? (Removed useful captions and stuff) --Illythr (talk) 10:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I can only assume your opinion that it "discredited my position rather thoroughly" is based on racial prejudice, as you make no comment on anyone else who makes similar edits to this page, presumably because they change it to your liking; someone might say that the fact you are from the capital of Moldova, but (according to your user page) don't speak a word of the official language, rather 3 foreign languages might discredit your position. Rapido (talk) 08:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Copypaste moving when a page protection is in place is a common vandal tactic. Reverting POV-unrelated things like caption names after being asked not to is another. I didn't comment on anyone else doing the copypaste move because nobody but you an a known long-term vandal (hint-hint) actually did it (other than to repair your moves). What kind of reaction do you expect, if your only contributions to build consensus so far have been revert warring and flinging various insults at other users? Could you also share with me which race you represent? It's remarkably difficult to engage in racial bias without actually knowing your skin color, nose shape, and other such things, you know. The contents of my userpage may indeed appear discrediting to some. Copypaste moves in order to bypass administrative protection and accusing everyone who doesn't agree with you of racial bias are discrediting for everyone. Well, almost. I bet Bonny approves. :-) --Illythr (talk) 09:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

See wikipedia:Naming conventions. The logic here is simple, everyone knows Burma, and it is well-established English usage. But who the hell heard Bender or Tighina in the whole world? In the later case the preference is for official local name. The same with Kiev, but Dnipropetrovsk despite the fact it is overwhelmingly Dnepropetrovsk in non-Ukrainian sources. `'Míkka>t 06:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but process is important, wouldn't you agree? If an RM a month ago failed to reach consensus for a move, shouldn't there be a compelling (as opposed to just a good) reason for an out-of-process move? Biruitorul (talk) 16:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Official name as per Moldavian law

User Mikkalai has provided undiscussable legal evidence - the official name of the city is Bender. I have absolutely no clue, how come a discussion is even taking place how are we going to name the article. It reminds me the previous pointless discussion on how were we going to name the Beltsy steppe... Shall the third discussion be how are we going to name the Black Sea? I hope one day will come, when even not knowing the subject users, will simply start typing key words in Google to have an idea of the topic. Some users simply amuse themselves on Wikipedia with killing their and our time with endless original researches--Moldopodo (talk) 16:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Although it does influence practice because many people respect that kind of thing, Wiki naming policy isn't determined by the dictates of governments. So for instance the Ukrainian government can make as many executive decrees and pass as much legislation as they like determining that Kyiv is the "English name", but that doesn't make it so; only usage does. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

wikipedia:naming conventions draws difference between Kyiv and a random village in Ethiopia. If there is no significant English usage of the name, the local is preference. Unlike Kiev, I doubt that an average English speaker ever heard or gives a damn about Bender or Tighina. `'Míkka>t 17:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The average English speaker doesn't give a damn about Kiev either. The people who care are eastern Europeans writing in English. The very presence of so much heated talk above I think puts this particular small city in the Kiev rather than "small village in Ethiopia" category. Maybe I'm wrong, WP:UE and WP:NAME don't really clear it up. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

• Kiev might be a different story, it seems to me that the proper spelling in English should be Kyiv, as official Ukrainian name and even the so called "usage" discussion point to it (Google search results: 655 000 for Kyiv Ukraine, 682 000 for Kiev Ukraine). The proprtion is quite different from the one in Bender / Tighina case.--Moldopodo (talk) 23:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

{Removed a huge piece of offtopic. Whoever would like to continue it is free to restore the relevant part on the talk page of the user the reply will be addressed to} --Illythr (talk) 23:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Illythr removed some relevant arguments along with off-topic, so I bring them back--Moldopodo (talk) 10:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the matter is quite clear: Romanian users support the name used during the 20 years of Romanian rule over the area, while others support the official name (used since the 16th century, with a short interruption cause by the Romanian rule).Xasha (talk) 19:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

It's somewhat amusing that Tighina is actually Slavic in origin, whereas Bender is Turk... --Illythr (talk) 19:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

For those who disregard official Moldavian legislation and try to engage into another pointless debate, please simply check Google search results for another time killing, so called "usage" debate: tighina moldova - 92 500, bender moldova - 171 000. I mean, if from all participating users, there is at least one really from Moldova, besides me, she/he will confirm, that even we, Moldavian speaking Moldavians say "Benderi / Bendery".

[edit] Outside but informed article naming opinion

I just ran across the latest article naming spat. Having plowed through mountains of literature in my epic (perhaps in my mind only!) Transnistrian battles with William Mauco and Des Grant and their minions of sockpuppets, I can say that I've seen "Bendery" used significantly more than "Bender" and both those far more than "Tighina." (Just as we have the English variant Dniester, trailed by Dnester and Dnestr, with Nistru far behind).
  As that literature progresses forward through time, it increasingly includes noting the name Tighina. However, "Bendery" and "Bender" will remain prevalent in English for quite some time if only because the name is frozen in time from its association with the armed Transnistrian conflict--and it will take time for that perception to thaw. (I should mention my general preference is for using "native" names in place of transliterated Russian names where those names don't agree.)
   That said, as long as we're using the "Bender" version, I firmly believe "Bendery" is far more appropriate than "Bender." Such a rename would also take care of the unfortunate circumstance where the "primary" article is currently a disambiguation page. Hope this helps! —PētersV (talk) 15:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Naming

I am curious, is there another name that would be mutually agreeable? Otherwise what if we used one name for the article and one for the lead? Geoff Plourde (talk) 05:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

That's a very good idea. I would favour Tighina as the article name, as that is consistent with other encyclopaedias, as well as not requiring a disambiguation (as Bender, Moldova or Bender (city) does). Then Bender would take precedence in the introduction of the article. Rapido (talk) 11:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Other thoughts? Geoff Plourde (talk) 15:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this'll work: There are only following names: Bender (official), Tighina (used in other encyclopediae), Bendery (Russian, see Vecrumba's reasoning above). As actual English usage is very difficult to determine to to the city's obscurity and interference from all those things and people, it's likewise hard to determine the right name. I understand, the local official name is preferred in such cases (Mikka's reason), but for some reason, the major encyclopedia use Tighina (valid opposition), Bendery may be more widespread, but as mentioned, this is hard to determine (Google Books points this way, though (643 vs 486 hits)). To me it's mostly a flip of the coin-type decision, except that it should say Bender in the city infobox, because the tag is called "official name". --Illythr (talk) 16:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, what if we used Tighina to solve the disambig problem, used Bendery in the lead and put Bender in the Infobox? Geoff Plourde (talk) 17:38, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A bit 'o Googling

Just checking...

• +bendery +bessarabia -wikipedia -site:*.md -site:*.ro -site:*.ru -site:*.ua = 5,630 matches
• +bender +bessarabia -wikipedia -site:*.md -site:*.ro -site:*.ru -site:*.ua = 2,870 matches
• +tighina +bessarabia -wikipedia -site:*.md -site:*.ro -site:*.ru -site:*.ua = 2,320 matches

• +bendery +moldova -wikipedia -site:*.md -site:*.ro -site:*.ru -site:*.ua = 85,000 matches
• +bender +moldova -wikipedia -site:*.md -site:*.ro -site:*.ru -site:*.ua = 108,000 matches
• +tighina +moldova -wikipedia -site:*.md -site:*.ro -site:*.ru -site:*.ua = 52,400 matches

Now...

• +bendery -wikipedia -site:*.md -site:*.ro -site:*.ru -site:*.ua = 109,000 matches
• +tighina -wikipedia -site:*.md -site:*.ro -site:*.ru -site:*.ua = 74,600 matches

Can't do Bender for obvious reasons, but it's clear Tighina would trail both Bender and Bendery.

This would appear to indicate that Bendery is most prevalent tending to historical or history-related materials (where one often finds Bessarabia used) while Bender has gained an edge in contemporary usage (with reference to Moldova). Tighina—while I would personally support this as well, as it addresses the disambiguation situation—comes in third in all cases. (I didn't go into doing the search intending to prove anything in any direction.) Just some fodder for discussion. —PētersV (talk) 17:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, technically, Bendery would solve the disambig issue as well... --Illythr (talk) 22:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

It's worth mentioning that Google hits should not be used as the sole measure of accuracy or predominance of usage. Of course if something gets hundreds of thousands of hits, and something else gets barely any, then it's obvious. But all the names seem very close to each other, even comparing 50,000 and 100,000 is too close. It's possible, just for example, that let's say perhaps a dating site has chosen one or other name on every one of its hundreds or even thousands of pages on its site. Rapido (talk) 09:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

---

I think it is clear that the most widespread form is Bender, also it goes along with the official legislation.

bender moldova - 171 000 tighina moldova - 92 500 bendery moldova - 89 700

I think we should leave the article named simply Bender, add up above the tag on Bender disambiguation (where should be moved the contents of the actual Bender article on Wikipedia) and further simply explain all the name confusion in the introduction. That seems to me true, easy, clear and logical--Moldopodo (talk) 19:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The name Tighina is just irredentism, so I support one of the two Bender* names. (Although I personally prefer Bender).Xasha (talk) 23:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, as I can see it, Bendery would remove the redirect issues. What about moving to Bendery, Moldova, using Tighina in the lead, and Bender in the Infobox? Geoff Plourde (talk) 00:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

tighina, moldovia 140,000 tighina 167,000 Geoff Plourde (talk) 00:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Tighina's also the Romanian name and Bendery is Russian and Ukrainian transliteration, so unless you refine your search like Vecrumba did, you're bound to get distorted results. Also, the land was called Moldavia. It is currently called Moldova. Moldovia is a kind of archaism like "Roumania". --Illythr (talk) 11:05, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

• Like I said earlier, the proper solution would be to name the article Bender, as all sources, including official legislation and usage as established by googling, show that Bender is the most widely accepted term. I think we should also use Bender in the infobox. The only place to put other names, Tighina, Bendery, would be the introduction.--Moldopodo (talk) 09:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, well I can see we have several issues here. How about we use the solution used for Istanbul? The intro clearly states that there are multiple names with a link to a naming article. The infobox has been modified to show the names used at specific periods of time. Sound like a plan? Geoff Plourde (talk) 04:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

• Actually, no, the name Tighina is not "just irredentism" - a fair amount of English-language sources use it, it's been used historically, the Chişinău authorities have been known to employ it, etc. There are arguments on both sides, but there's no need to stop assuming good faith on Tighina supporters' part. Biruitorul (talk) 03:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Indeed, I agree with Biruitorul's statement here. There also appears to be something of an opinion, as held by Xasha and Mikkalai, that because ethnically Russian editors outnumber other many ethnicities (such as Romanian ones), that their opinions are more important and that everyone else is wrong. To their credit, some of the authors of Russian related articles (who are mostly Russian judging by the edit histories) do a brilliant job on quite obscure (to Westerners) subjects... Gavrilov translation anyone? Or how about some Volapuk encoding! But let's not discredit the valid opinions of people here with "it's just irredentism" talk. Rapido (talk) 09:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, Xasha and Moldopodo don't seem to be Russian, and Vecrumba here will probably cringe at such an accusation. Therefore it is indeed wise to stop discussing the users' ethnicities and "racial bias" (c) and focus on their arguments, yes. ;-) --Illythr (talk) 13:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I can still recite Pushkin in the original from Russian lessons in my youth, it's only the Soviet system I have an issue with. :-) —PētersV (talk) 22:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Just in case we don't make any progress here, perhaps we can at least lobby the disambiguation page so that Bender (the city) appears before "Bender (Futurama)," a character on Futurama? Seems to me "Places" should be at the top of a disambiguation page. —PētersV (talk) 05:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

...And the real ones before fictional at that, agreed. --Illythr (talk) 13:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Let's make it clear

I think Peter's suggestion sounds good, as long as I understood it right. In fact, it is exactly what I have proposed earlier. We are going to name the article on the city Bender and move the actual article Bender (which is disambig article) to the Bender (disambiguation). We can try some voting here... P.S. Let's just try simply vote for or against this variant: Bender and Bender (disambigutaion), without making references to others. We could always make a vote for different variants and mixes (as long as they are accepted on Wikipedia). It's normal that afte all no consensus will be ever found on any suggestion as certain users simplyu deviate from the proposed variant and transfer the voting from original suggestion to another suggestions. This is not the way you can discuss things generally and reach any logical reasoning in particular. I wonder if this sabotage is a mere accident or intended desorganisation of a normal constructive debate/voting... --Moldopodo (talk) 13:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] For Bender and Bender (disambiguation)

• --Moldopodo (talk) 13:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
• PētersV (talk) 14:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC) ... Wasn't what I suggested, but an even better idea. The most major city with a name should have precedence over a disambiguation page (with cartoon robots). At a minimum, "Bender" should be the city and disambiguation is pointed to. If we can't agree on anything else, this alone would be a vast improvement on the current situation. Even for those who prefer Tighina, I believe this would at least be a short term solution to appropriately improve visibility. Especially with Putin's move to offer relations with a couple of the breakaway regions (South Ossetia and Abkhazia), there will be renewed interest in the region (given Transnistria).

  I would advise against playing with the disambig. What about utilizing the same solution used for Istanbul? Geoff Plourde (talk) 16:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

  With parentheses populating Bender titles already, if we can't gain support for changing disambiguation, I would suggest we consider "Bender (Tighina)" as a more appropriate title to the current "Bender, Moldova". I know this is opening a can of worms (never did get folks to consider "Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiełło)" as a valid compromise), but it's still a can worth considering. :-) PētersV (talk) 14:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

  I kind of like the look of that can - I say let's open it and see how it tastes. "Bender (Tighina)" is a compromise that should make everyone happy. Biruitorul (talk) 21:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

  Just to close the loop on Geoff Plourde's reference to Istanbul, I don't think that (Names of Istanbul I'm assuming) works here since both names, Bender(y) and Tighina, are in contemporary use, while Names of Istanbul is a chronology.

  Who says a Names of Bender section would have to be past and present. I was pointing out one way that people overcame the two name problem. Geoff Plourde (talk) 03:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

  Hi, Geoff - I didn't think the approach would work as well here--there aren't any controversies over what Istanbul has been called in the past, so that appeared to be more a resolution on how to present historical information as opposed to how resolve choices in current usage. (You should see the debate over at Kiev versus Kyiv!) No slight meant regarding your suggestion. —PētersV (talk) 13:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Perfectly understandable, The main point was how they did the infobox with alternative names. Geoff Plourde (talk) 17:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

• Weak support. The Futurama guy is objectively much more popular, and I bet most "Bender"-seekers will be interested in him, rather than in a city god-knows-where. Still, I believe that the real things should generally come before the fictional. --Illythr (talk) 18:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

What do you think about Bender (Tighina) ? Dc76\^talk 14:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Up there. Not so good. --Illythr (talk) 18:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Against Bender and Bender (disambiguation)

• My suggestion would be that the article would be best placed at either Tighina or Bender (Tighina) to avoid the Bender disambiguation problems. Although I prefer the former - to keep consistency with other encyclopedias and avoid the necessity for a clarification in parentheses - I have no objection with the latter being used, but there should be some balance in the introduction and infobox. Rapido (talk) 21:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

• Because most people want to read about Bender, the robot. If not, I'm gonna make my own encyclopedia! With blackjack...! and hookers...! In fact, forget the encyclopedia and the blackjack! bogdan (talk) 22:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Quite possibly sad but true! And as I've indicated, I'd also support Bender (Tighina), to Rapido's above. Given the disambiguation situation, it's a solution which also notes the two quite different names, both in contemporary use, in the title. —PētersV (talk) 22:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Indeed, sad: the other Bender is quite an interesting character who deserves more attention! :-) bogdan (talk) 23:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

      No, this is not Rio de Janeiro... Dahn (talk) 06:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

  • I'm sorry, can I vote on both sides??? :-) PētersV (talk) 22:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

• My understanding is that the article could be placed at one of the following three locatations: Tighina, Tighina (Bender), or Bender (Tighina). Please, also notice that before the controversial and abusive move + immediate move protect, which apparently only had one single aim: to radicalize the spirits, there was a very civilized discussion going on, and the latter two versions were gathering momentum with more moderate users. The two names, Bender and Tighina are both in use in English. None of them has a significantly more dominant usage than the other. Dc76\^talk 14:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

• • I didn't see any such double names on wikipedia, and I don't think it is acceptable per WP:NCGN. If we don't have Kiev (Kyiv) why should we have Bender (Tighina) (redirections excluded)?Xasha (talk) 18:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to introduce you to Province of Bolzano-Bozen, History of Alto Adige/South Tyrol, Biel/Bienne, Leintz-Gatzaga, Laudio/Llodio, Baños de Ebro/Mañueta, Elburgo/Burgelu, Peñacerrada-Urizaharra, San Millán/Donemiliaga, Yécora/Iekora, Lanciego/Lantziego, Villabuena de Álava/Eskuernaga, Campezo/Kanpezu, Oyón-Oion, Ribera Baja/Erribera Beitia, Salvatierra/Agurain, Harana/Valle de Arana, Elvillar/Bilar, Ayala/Aiara, Iruña de Oca/Iruña Oka, Vitoria-Gasteiz, Abaurregaina/Abaurrea Alta, Abaurrepea/Abaurrea Baja, Aoiz - Agoitz, Altsasu/Alsasua, Arce - Artzi, Auritz / Burguete, Estella - Lizarra, Ezcároz - Ezkaroze, Luzaide/Valcarlos, Noáin (Valle de Elorz) - Noain (Elortzibar), Hiriberri/Villanueva de Aezkoa, Huarte - Uharte, Gallués - Galoze, Burgui - Burgi, Sangüesa - Zangoza, Sarriés - Sartze, Uztárroz - Uztarrotze, Urdazubi/Urdax, Roncal - Erronkari, Villava/Atarrabia and Vidángoz - Bidankoze. Biruitorul (talk) 04:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

• • • But all those towns are officially bilingual. Bender has only one official name: Bender. Hey, I just noticed Romanian towns officially bilingual (the ones inhabited by a Hungarian majoritiy) don't have double names. Why?Xasha (talk) 13:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Romania has just one official language. So does Moldova, on whose territory Tighina is located. Transnistria, which controls it, has two additional ones. Given that we generally refer to left-bank localities by their Romanian name, there's no justification for employing a Russian-used only name here. Tighina is either officially monolingual (Romanian) or trilingual (Romanian, Russian, Ukrainian), so the same analogy applies. Biruitorul (talk) 14:13, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This page says otherwise. There's no settlement called Tighina in Moldova. I don't care what names you, Romanians, use when reffering to Moldovan settlements. Bender is a Turkish name. Again, officially, there's no Tighina in Moldova : [13] Xasha (talk) 14:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see the Constitution of Romania, art. 14: "In Romania, the official language is Romanian." In places where non-Romanians form over 20% of the population, their language can indeed be used in local administration, but the country, and all its subdivisions, still have only one official language. Kindly refrain from pointing out editors' ethnicity to discredit their opinions: that is an intolerable form of personal attack. And let's not play games: Bender originates in Turkish, but given that the Ottoman Empire hasn't held power in the region for well over a century, and that the name is used, relevantly, in Russian, it's a Russian name. What's official and what is not is both debatable and not entirely relevant. Zhongguo and Bharat are also official, but we call them China and India; the question, at bottom, is what the town is called in English, not what the Chişinău or Tiraspol authorities happen to call it. Biruitorul (talk) 19:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an expert in Romanian law, but if it is so, that page should be changed. The same case with Moldova: Moldovan is the only official language in Moldova proper, part of which Bender is, and the official name, used by both the Moldovan and Transnistrian administration, is "Bender". Then who are those "we"? People calling themselves "Biruitorul"? No, Bender is the Moldovan name. The Russian name has a yery, transliterated in English as "y". As a matter of fact, the Russian name, Bendery, surpasses the Romanian name in Google's Book Search. So, both the Turkish/Moldovan one and the Russian/Ukrainian one are more adequate on Wikipedia than the obsolete Romanian name. The official English name of India is India. Also, the name used by PRC's government in foreign relation is China. The English name for Bender is Bender, as used by the US Embassy in Moldova, the latest US Department of State country reports and the CIA factbook. BTW: Christ is risen!Xasha (talk) 23:13, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no Moldovan language, and please, Bender=Bendery=Бендеры. But my head is swimming after seeing those two names so many times. Adevărat a Înviat! Воистину воскресе! Truly He is Risen! Biruitorul (talk) 01:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Now you're being nationalistic, and indeed, all those names refer to the same city, just in different languages: Moldovan/Turkish/English, transliterated Russian/Ukrainian/English and Russian Cyrillic.Xasha (talk) 11:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, this has nothing to do with "nationalism" - all reliable linguists agree the "Moldovan language" is fake. And again, it's absurd to say "Bender" is Turkish - yes, the Turks came up with the name, but what is relevant today is that Russian uses Bender, or something very close to it, and that Russian is not an official language of Moldova, and is only one of three official languages in the PMR. Biruitorul (talk) 17:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Who cares about the names' origins? All that matters is English usage and that is what should be the focus of this discussion. BTW, Biru, not sure if you got confused or something, but "Bender" is the official Moldovan name (as in "supported by the laws of the Republic of Moldova"). "Tighina" is not mentioned in the laws of RM. So, Bender is the only official name in the official language of the country. However, "Tighina" has gained a widespread usage as well, somehow. Vecrumba's search above, however, hints that the Russian transliteration, "Bendery" is actually more popular, probably due to the 1992 conflict... --Illythr (talk) 17:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

An acclaimed Romanian linguist supported it. Following your logic, we should also change the name of you capital, since "Bucharest" originates in and is used today by Russian.Xasha (talk) 10:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

a) Please describe the "acclaimed linguist" claim in more detail. b) No! First, Bucharest (unless you'd like to offer contrary evidence) is of Romanian origin. Second, the point I was making is that Bender's etymological origins are irrelevant to this discussion - there are no Turks of appreciable numbers in Moldova (the Gagauz excluded), the Republic of Turkey has no territorial claim over the region, etc. By contrast, appreciable numbers of Russians (and Ukrainians, who use the same name) inhabit both Tighina and the PMR as a whole (which indeed has a strong Slavic majority). Russian and Ukrainian are official languages in that entity (ruled by a Russian), the Russian Federation itself has strong interests (and an army) in the zone, and so on. So saying that "Bender is a Turkish name", while correct as far as etymology, is irrelevant geopolitically today - what is relevant is its use by Russian. Biruitorul (talk) 20:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

a)Alexandru Graur. Or maybe, because he was Jewish, he "surely" was a Bolshevist who sold his soul to the Stalinist devil? b) Bucuresti may be Romanian, but Bucharest is a purely Slavic rendition. Moldovans are the majority in Moldova, and they call the town Bender. The fact the Russian and Ukrainian inhabitants use the same name can only support the case of Bender. I'm sure Russia can't wait to steal Moldova's wines and food canning industry. Once they'll conquer Moldova, nothing would stand against their Imperial dream of ruling the Universe. This is outright russophobia.Xasha (talk) 22:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

a) Kindly do not accuse me of anti-Semitism. However, given his support of the Stalinist regime, of course the scholarship he produced in the 1950s and beyond is subject to question, particularly when it comes to politically sensitive matters. Maybe you can find a contemporary Western linguist who echoes Graur's claims? b) What about the French Bucarest - is that Slavic too? Really, now - these are all slight variations on the same theme, not totally unrelated like Bender and Tighina. Romanians are the majority in Bessarabia (see the apolitical 1930 Romanian census), and refer to the town as Tighina. The fact that Russian and Ukrainian inhabitants use Bender might (assuming English usage bears this out) be a reason for introducing Bender alongside Tighina in the title. A phobia is an irrational fear, and fear of Russia - of Putin's Russia, not of Russians, is quite rational. However: the 14th Army is still there, and saying that Russia has "strong interests" somewhere does not (Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact aside) imply Russia wishes to conquer a place. The US, for instance, has had "strong interests" in Latin America for about 200 years, but rarely has it outright occupied countries, instead exercising more subtle influence over the region. Biruitorul (talk) 15:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

a)Most important European writers of the 20th century were at some time Communists, does this mean that Europe produced only lies during the 20th century? b) Bucharest and all relevant Western forms came through a Slavic form, not directly from Romanian. Calling the only census that didn't record a Moldovan plurality in the 200 years of census records in Bessarabia apolitical clearly shows your intention to politicize the matter. The majority of Moldova's population, that calls itself Moldovan, and refutes the name "Romanian" applied by ethno-racists, calls the city Bender. I don't see any town in Romania having as title the Romany name, so no article about a Moldovan town will be called by its Romanian name. If Russia would have had the same level of implication in the internal affairs of foreign countries as the US, now you wouldn't have planty governments in ex-Soviet countries, and the Russian minority in the Baltics would be treated with some basic decency.Xasha (talk) 19:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

a) Three points. i) The "most" claim is utterly false for Western Europe (Britain? Germany? Spain? Even France and Italy were divided.). As for Eastern Europe, some fine literature was produced by party members, but that was generally not the case between about 1947 and 1963. ii) An ex-Communist is just that: ex. So I have no reason to question the merits of ex-Communists' writings (Koestler for instance). iii) A Communist writing outside a Communist dictatorship (Camus for instance) retains his freedom of conscience and is not bound to follow Party dictates on ideological content in the arts. iv) Finally, I reject the hyperbolic, loaded premise of your question. I never said all Communists are liars, or something as absurd as that "Europe produced only lies" for 100 years. All I said is that the work of a Communist linguist working under conditions of Stalinism might well be expected to toe the Party line and "conclude" what his superiors ask (directly or not) that he conclude. And your contemporary Western linguist has yet to materialise. b) I'm sorry, but you'll have to provide evidence that Bucharest comes from a Slavic form, and in any case, this is irrelevant, as the names are all clearly very similar, unlike Bender and Tighina. The 1897 census recorded mother tongue, not ethnicity, and did so as "Moldavian/Romanian". I have no intention to politicise anything: the 1930 count was lauded for its impartiality and modernity. The majority of Bessarabian inhabitants are Romanians of the Bessarabian variety, just as Oltenians inhabit Oltenia, dobrogeni inhabit Dobrudja, etc. That they call themselves something else is the result of Communist propaganda and fear, not a denial of their core identity. And I am sorry, but Tighina is also widely employed. Kindly refrain from calling users "ethno-racists" merely for pointing out that the Prut River divides a single people, yesterday, today and forever - Romanians are one and the same on both sides, all the way to the Nistru! Romanian in official in Romania, though we point out the Romani name of Budeşti, as it is Romania's only town that is over 20% Roma. All other towns in the Republic of Moldova are called by their Romanian names (and, curiously, the PMR too), so Tighina should not be an exception, as "Moldovan", identical to Romanian, is the official language and the renaming process happened to be interrupted by a war. Do see Hungarian Revolution of 1956, Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia, Soviet war in Afghanistan, Soviet occupation of Romania... And I'm sorry, but nothing is stopping Baltic Russians from learning the official language and acquiring citizenship - indeed tens of thousands have done so. The Baltics have treated Russians with far more decency than what was offered to them by the Soviets - the Gulag, collectivisation, deportation, de-nationalisation, environmental destruction, and so on. Biruitorul (talk) 06:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

a) I didn't read the first part of your message due to its irrelevance to our topic. However: "most" is accurate, and I have to remind you that the same Romanian communist regime was the one who condemned the Soviets for invading Czechoslovakia. How come they "supported" Soviets in non-political things, like linguistics, but were against them in heavily political topics? b) Bucharest comes from a Slavic, and it's a pity you're not aware of it. I'm interested how do you explain the "ch" in the name. Yes, the 1897 combined the two mother tongues due to their similarity (and was "Moldovan and Romanian"). They did the same for Czech and Slovak, for Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian and for Spanish and Portuguese. Also the 1897 was not the first census in Bessarabia. All censuses in Bessarabia, from 1817 to 2004, counted a Moldovan plurality, except one census made during Romanian rule over the region. I don't care what Romanians thought about the census they made during a time when the Iron Guard was an influent player in Romanian politics and minority schools were closed all over Romania. We refuse to be called Romanians, and this was proved over and over again. It's not an ethno-racists job to impose a name on a people that doesn't want it. Romanians are even nowadays afraid to let the masses speak. Praise to the Bulgarians, who, despite their official policy towards Macedonians, published the unbiased results of their census. I didn't say this article shouldn't mention the Romanian name of the city, like you do with the Romany name for Budesti. All cities in Moldova are called by their official Moldovan name, as established by the Parliament of Moldova. And the Parliament said Bender's official Moldovan name is Bender. So imposing a foerign name, not used by inhabitants or the Government would be an exception. I talk about present topics, and you reply pointing me to examples from Stalin's era. Grow up man, we're in the 3rd millenium now. The Soviet Union didn't require its citizens to know Russian in 1940; not even the Romanians in 1920 required the population of its newly annexed territories to know Romanian to give them citizenship. What happens in Latvia and Estonia is a breach of human rights, and the fact that Russia did nothing about it (even if it should have) proves its peaceful objectives. BTW, collectivisation of small properties proved to be beneficial for agriculture, and is supported nowadays by the EU.Xasha (talk) 14:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

No, it is not accurate - it is quite false to say that "most important European writers of the 20th century were at some time Communists". Primo Levi, Giuseppe di Lampedusa, Luigi Pirandello, Heinrich Böll, Günter Grass, Antoine de Saint Exupéry, François Mauriac, Eugène Ionesco, Jean Anouilh, Federico Garcia Lorca, Nikos Kazantzakis, Samuel Beckett, James Joyce, Evelyn Waugh, DH Lawrence, TS Eliot, Graham Greene and of course Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn - none of these was ever a Communist! The regime underwent a few phases - slavishly pro-Soviet (1948-56) - something in between, as de-Stalinization was being resisted (1956-68) - a nominally "independent" posture (1968-89). So it's quite possible that the regime's acolytes backed the Soviet view of linguistics in 1952 (and, believe me, linguistics can be quite a political field) while reading from a different script 16 years later - different dictators in both countries, for instance. The "contemporary Western linguist", by the way, has yet to appear. I'm sorry, but you'll have to give evidence that "Bucharest", so similar to Bucureşti, is Slavic; many Romanian words have a "ch" sound - cană, caiet, carne, curmală, etc. On 1897: please note the very different orders of magnitude. 138 total speakers of Spanish&Portuguese out of 125 million people - it's simply not relevant if 94 spoke Spanish and 44 Portuguese. With 1,121,669 speakers of "Moldavian and Romanian", though, you'd think they'd have an interest in giving a breakdown if there was any difference in language, no? So of course some of the illiterate peasants (and keep in mind, the vast majority of Romanian Bessarabians were illiterate at the time) might have said grăiesc moldoveneşte and not vorbesc română - in no way does this imply separate ethnicity or language, only differing educational level. Obviously, other censuses in Russia, the USSR and Communist-governed Moldova have an interest in denying the inhabitants' true Romanian nature, but that doesn't mean impartial observers need to play the game of denying that Bessarabians are Romanians. The 1930 census has been praised by neutral sources; minority schools were not "closed all over Romania" (source?) and the Iron Guard was still a fringe group - it was still a couple of years away from entering Parliament, carrying out its first assassination (1933), and so on. One is free to deny one's Romanian identity but that shouldn't stop serious scholars from proclaiming the truth of the matter. Kindly refrain (and please don't make me use that phrase one more time - personal attacks are not allowed) from referring to me as an "ethno-racist"; I am merely stating facts - a people with a shared language, culture, history, identity - that is one single people, regardless of the effects of Soviet propaganda or the trauma of 1940. Romania is a mature democracy and allows the masses to speak freely. I quite understand Bulgaria's reticence; "Macedonians" are Serbs turned into a fake separate ethnicity by Tito's policy of weakening and suppressing Serbian identity - a sad parallel to Bessarabia. As it so happens, "Moldovan" names are identical to Romanian ones and in this one exception, we need not take account solely of what the rogue Chişinău authorities decree. Especially because the "Moldovan" state is illegitimate and should be absorbed by its rightful owners, Bucharest, without delay. The EU (itself a dangerous neo-Stalinist creature) doesn't (yet) have a Gulag, and I do not believe that the violent means of collectivisation justified the end. What the Soviets did to the Baltics in 1940-91 was also a breach of human rights. Latvia was 52% Latvian in 1989. It faced an existential crisis. First Latvians and people who know Latvian get to have a solid hold on the state, and once they're sure of that they can think about extending citizenship to non-speakers, but former Soviet settlers really should learn to respect Latvia and Estonia, and not treat them as their colonial playgrounds, where they can live for decades without learning the language, history, etc. Biruitorul (talk) 21:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to further discuss with a guy holding fringe opinions reminiscent of Nazi Germany. Your denial of Moldovan statality should exclude you from further debates about my country.Xasha (talk) 21:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

That's your prerogative; personal attack (Nazi comparison) duly noted. As long as my policy-based participation is based on facts and sources and not my personal viewpoint (and here, in arguing for Tighina, sources have been my guide all along), I reject that notion. Biruitorul (talk) 22:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's official. And that should weigh heavily, but not decisively, on our choice of title, whether it ends up being Bender, Bendery, Tighina, Tighina (Bender), Bender (Tighina), Бендеры, whatever. Biruitorul (talk) 18:13, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

• Per Dc76 - the move was unilateral, against consensus, and not convincingly supported by English-language sources. Move either to Tighina (the status quo retained after the move discussion), or try a double name solution. Biruitorul (talk) 04:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
  • • The status quo is "Bender, Moldova". Xasha (talk) 13:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

The status quo ante unilateral move is Tighina. Biruitorul (talk) 14:13, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

The status quo is supported by Wikipedia policy.Xasha (talk) 14:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Whether or not that is the case, it violates process. Biruitorul (talk) 19:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Are there any objections to Bender-Tighina or Bender (Tighina)? Geoff Plourde (talk) 07:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

See above. Xasha (talk) 13:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Forget about Tighina. It was relevant only during 20 years a long time ago, end 19th beginning of 20th century. What's all this talk about Tighina? It's completely irrelevant today as it was fifty years ago.--Moldopodo (talk) 07:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

No, we shall not forget about Tighina as long as numerous reliable sources in the English language continue to refer to it as such. Biruitorul (talk) 17:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, as long as the major encyclopedia continue to use this name, it will remain relevant. I'm rather curious how this happened, though. --Illythr (talk) 17:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Probably they assumed every thing supported by Soviets is inherently evil. It's not the first time Westerners try to impose something they consider right against the will of the population. Also, it may have something to do with disinformation, see for example the false information in the Columbia Encyclopaedia.Xasha (talk) 10:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Please, let's not veer into conspiracism. This is 2008 material, written 17 years or so after the Soviet collapse. Biruitorul (talk) 15:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Exactly the same article is found in my 2002 edition of Britannica. The 17 year old population data show the real date of the article. Also, the article lacks any information about Soviet rule or the important events during the conflict in Transnistria ( In 1991, when it was written, there was no Transnistria war). Interestingly, the same 2002 version of Britannica uses "Bender (now Bendery, Moldova)" in the article "The Age of Greatness" in its Swedish history series and "Years in Turkey, 1709-14" of the Charles XII series (same in [2008 ) Should we base our decision on such an outdated an inconsistent source?Xasha (talk) 19:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It's much more likely that the renaming process was started in 1991, but was canceled due to war. The Russian article mentions a referendum in the city, that overwhelmingly supported Bender. No date, source or initiator is given, though. An anon on the ruwiki talk page mentioned an "International Geographic alliance" that someone had informed of the intended new name, as the source for all the modern encyclopedia using "Tighina". --16:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Our decision should certainly take it into account, though no single source should be decisive. Biruitorul (talk) 06:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

In this page the city is called Tighina: Cetatea Tighina se află în oraşul Tighina, este din secolul XVI, fiind reconstruită în sec. XVII-XVIII. Este de o importanţă internaţională.--Olahus (talk) 18:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neutral

• I think the current name should stay, maybe putting it above other categories in the main Bender page.Xasha (talk) 01:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Geoff's Proposal

Since we seem to be going nowhere in the naming thing I would like to propose a compromise.

I:It has long been accepted practice on Wikipedia to utilize the official name of a city as the name of an article. This practice should therefore be followed in this case.

II:Issues have come up in several cases where a city may have two popularly accepted names, or where the official name is not very popular. Tighina should be added in a special field in the userbox and in the lead to allow for clarity.

III:The naming controversy should be addressed in a dedicated section or article.

Thoughts? Geoff Plourde (talk) 04:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Support

• --Moldopodo (talk) 07:05, 27 April 2008 (UTC)I support Bender and think it's all logical to explain whatever there is to explain else in the intro and in the infobox. Let's hope that "pro Greater - Romania" users will not rush into here and sabotage this voting again, as they did in previous votings...--Moldopodo (talk) 07:05, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
• -Support for the official name. We already have a section that presents the different names. We could adopt a Gdansk-like solution for historical references to the city in other articles.Xasha (talk) 11:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oppose

• Strong oppose; there is still no 101% certainty about what the official name is. But if we are going to campaign for only the official name to be used in Wikipedia, then let's start with Londonderry, Myanmar and Kyiv perhaps, which are places that are a lot more well known in the West compared to Tighina. I also thought that Bender (Tighina) would be a mutually acceptable compromise, but it seems that some people still wish to talk about "those evil Romanians sabotaging the poll!". Everyone's view is valid here. I don't see how voting in a democratic way is considered sabotage! Rapido (talk) 12:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately sabotage is exactly what you are doing when you refer to something else than the voting, for example Londonderry, etc.. Either you do not know what WP:BEANS means, or you simply lack general culture and civility to make a logical reasoning, sticking strictly to the subject, or you indeed do it on purpose to divert readers' attention and put through some irrelevancies. And yes, mostly users supporting Greater Romania do this on Wikipedia... What a shame--Moldopodo (talk) 15:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Rapido,Wikipedia is not a democracy. It is common practice to use the official name, which is why I proposed it. Bender (Tighina) is a possible compromise, but apparently consensus is against it. Geoff Plourde (talk) 16:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, what can I say... There is no point continuing when bullied into complying. Rapido (talk) 10:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I just looked and according to the Romanization convention, A conventional name of a place is the name listed in major English dictionaries and should be preferred over romanization at all times. That is the one we should use. Geoff Plourde (talk) 16:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

As the famous saying goes: "Vanzarea catre minori este interzisa... Fumatul dauneaza santatii dumneavoastra!". Rapido (talk) 10:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neutral

---

• About Rapido's comment: The only one who can say what the official name of a city de jure administered by Moldova is the Moldovan Parliament, and they said the official name is Bender. As a matter of fact, the de facto administrators of Bender, not recognized by any international organization, uses the same name. So, whether you're a supporter of the rightful government or of the rebels, the official name is Bender. Exactly: those places are better known in English, and such have an established English-language name. This is not the case for Bender, and the policy of Wikipedia (WP:NCGN) says we should use official name for the title whenever we can't find an established name used by academia.Xasha (talk) 22:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
• About Geoff Plourde's : I can't see why Latin script should be Romanized.Xasha (talk) 22:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Naming Conventions

According to the Romanization convention, we should use the conventional English definition used in traditional dictionaries. I just ran it through Britannica and it came up Tighina. So, there is precedent to use Tighina. Geoff Plourde (talk) 16:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Moldovan is written in Latin alphabet, so Romanization conventions don't apply here.Xasha (talk) 22:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Then why does bender have to be translated into English? The policy would seem to say to use Tighina as that is the conventional English name. Geoff Plourde (talk) 20:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Bender is originally Turkish. It is actually Бендеры, that is the transliteration (I assume you meant that instead of "translation"). Now, Tighina was at first written in (old) Cyrillic and later transliterated into the Latin script. But this happened so long ago, that the Romanization rules no longer apply, I think. --Illythr (talk) 00:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Feed this into Britannica and you get Tighina. Tighina would appear to be the conventional name. Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Britannica has extremely outdated and incomplete data about Bender (1991 population data. Use of non-standard, Romanian spelling of â. No information about the conflict in Transnistria, where Bender was witness to one of the most important battles. No update whatsoever to the article in (at least) the last 6 years). Moreover, it has been shown that in several articles it uses the formulation "now/modern Bendery, Moldova", with no mention of "Tighina".Xasha (talk) 20:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The point is that Tighina appears to be the conventional English name. Bender or Bendery has to be translated out from a Cyrillic language. Geoff Plourde (talk) 16:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Bender does not have to be translated from a Cyrillic language, being originally Turkish. It's the other way around.

Per Vecrumba's bit o Googling up there, the "conventional name" point is rather moot.

A Google books search confirms Peters' findings, and shows that the most English language books use "Bendery" (Bendery Moldova = 226 hits), followed by "Bender" (Bender Moldova = 192 hits) and trailed by "Tighina" (Tighina Moldova = 146 hits).

Still, several (3 so far) major encyclopaediae do use "Tighina", outdated or not.

Basically, this issue has no clear solution (at least I don't see one right now) and has all the potential to drag on indefinitely, until some admin decides it by flipping a coin or something. --Illythr (talk) 16:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If it's going to be Bender-something, Bendery really is the preferred English term (and properly reflects the transliterated from Turkish to Cyrillic "ы"). I'd like to editorially respect both names, but any punctuation you pick comes with its own set of incorrect implications, as in Bendery (Tighina) = Bendery, part of Tighina.

• Bendery/Tighina?
• Bendery-Tighina?
• Computing logic? Bendery|Tighina?

Certainly everyone here has been attempting to smite the Gordian knot. Is there any convention we can agree on which reflects both (and I don't see any huge problem in deviating from "convention" if we all agree...)?

   And a small P.S., most of the texts I've seen on the Transnistrian conflict do refer to Bendery or Bender, not Tighina. Your mileage may vary. :-) —PētersV (talk) 17:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Eh, that "-ы" thingy seems to be a Russian addition to the Turkish "Bender". Say, won't that slash create a subarticle "Tighina"? --Illythr (talk) 18:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see the merits of this continual discussion. An administrator has decided on a name, and no other unanimous agreement seems possible. All the references brought here didn't help us, because they are too few of them mentioning this town. I think this is again a sign that the town is not known well enough in the English-speaking word to merit an English name. In such cases, policy says use the local name. And I can't see how a double name will help. As a fellow editor told me during my first week on Wikipedia, a redirect quickly solves problems with alternate names. Why sould this be special, and what about the precedent this could set?(just think of Kiev)Xasha (talk) 18:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Kiev and Kyiv have the same origin and are easily recognisable as being the same, so it's not quite analogous. Moreover, the administrator made that decision following an RM that produced no consensus, thus failing to respect process. We should keep this discussion alive until some convincing (that is, based on sources and usage) solution is found. Biruitorul (talk) 18:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Yet it produced 10 Wikipedia pages of discussion (that would be enough for a large hard copy booklet) and the subject is still not dead. I hope we don't have to go that way. All the arguments against Bender brought in the "vote" above were objectively dismissed, and the procedure failed only due to votes based on personal feelings. Wikipedia is not a democracy, so if an administrator considered that the move is requisite, he had all the right to do it. (After all he was vested in a position of trust by a far larger number of Wikipedia editors than the one of those who ever contributed to this page).Xasha (talk) 19:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

First, you have to provide evidence rather than assertions that oppose votes were based on "personal feelings", or else not make such a claim. Second, per WP:DEAL: "There is very little extra decision-making ability that goes along with adminship, and it does not add any extra voice in consensus decisions." Biruitorul (talk) 17:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, lets go back to the drawing board. I created a thread below on Possible names. Lets add all the ones we can think of. After that we can systematically discuss and eliminate names. Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name Possibilities

1. Bender and Bender (disambiguation)--Moldopodo (talk) 15:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
2. Bender, Moldova Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
3. Bendery, Moldova Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
4. Bender (Tighina) Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
5. Bender-Tighina Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
6. Tighina Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
7. Bendery
8. Bendery (Tighina)

   I pulled out Magocsi's Historical Atlas of Central Europe (as current and as seminal work as one can find on that geography and history), and the in the index we have:

   a)   Bendery [Ru] (Bender [T,Y]; Tighina [R])

   b)  Tighina (see Bendery)

   So, order of preference: Bendery (per Russian), Bender (per Turkish and Yiddish), Tighina (per Romanian)

   ...and mathematical notation obviously won't work, since "|" means something special, well duh (!) on that. I numbered the entries to make them easier to reference.—PētersV (talk) 02:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion of Name Possibilities

I noted Magocsi as a (potential) definitive reference. —PētersV (talk) 02:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Perhaps some kind soul can archive some of the prior discussions? :-)

Although I still consider that Bender falls under that category of cities with no established English name, Bendery may be a compromise solution. Xasha (talk) 18:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bendery

Is this acceptable? Geoff Plourde (talk) 00:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Well... yes. --Illythr (talk) 17:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

My primary editorial choice... —PētersV (talk) 14:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, personally, and as per evidence above, Bender would be the best solution. However, if the consensus is for Bendery I would not mind, as it does not differ all that much form the official version.--Moldopodo (talk) 15:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Tighina" is more often used than "Bender" (as said by User:Olahus)

In the Moldovan webpages written in Romanian (Moldovan) the denomination "Tighina" is more often used than the denomination "Bender".

Click here: http://www.google.ro/advanced_search?hl=ro
than put in the field: conţinând toate cuvintele the searched term (in our case Tighina or Bender)
than choose in the field: Limbă Găsiţi pagini scrise în the Romanian language (Română)
than choose in the field: Regiune Căutare pagini aflate în: the Moldovan Republic (Moldova, Republica)
and finally press the button Căutare Google
Results: 20.500 pages for Tighina and 20.100 pages for Bender. --Olahus (talk) 18:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant for the discussion. The Romanian minority in Moldova may use whatever name they want, but this doesn't change the law or English language usage.Xasha (talk) 20:38, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Romanian minority? You mean the persons with Romanian nationality, right? In the census results I see only the term "naţionalitate", but never "etnie". So please stop pushing your personal point of view.--Olahus (talk) 16:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

ROFLMAO Xasha (talk) 18:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Using fictitious terms like "Romanian minority in Moldova" tends to weaken one's arguments. Biruitorul ^Talk 16:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Well there, are only about 2% of Romanians in moldova, it's certainly not a majority...--Moldopodo (talk) 15:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Not a Romanian majority? You mean the persons with Romanian nationality, right? In the census results I see only the term "naţionalitate", but never "etnie". So please stop pushing your personal point of view.--Olahus (talk) 16:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

2 X ROFLMAO. Xasha (talk) 18:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

No, it makes it easier for people to see who's the one living in the real world, where people have the freedom of thought and can freely say what they consider themselves, and who's living in an ethno-racist dream, where he thinks he can dictate on others his opinions based on hitlerite thought.Xasha (talk) 17:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's move it to Tighina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.4.165.112 (talk) 05:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's not use proxy servers.Xasha (talk) 07:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's stay away from the implication that Moldovans are not Romanians, et al. With the Transnistrian conflict and "Bendery" coming to the fore with regard to any awareness in the (English-speaking) West, "Bendery" continues to be the most-used English name for Bendery/Bender/Tighina. Unfortunately, I continue to find myself editorially arguing against my personal preference. When King or Magocsi or similiar put out a new book where Tighina is the primary index entry and they discuss the events in Tighina, not Bendery, then we can objectively support a rename to Tighina. It's the "English exonym" that counts in this case. —PētersV (talk) 14:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Forgive my stupidity, but what exactly is the origin of Moldovan? Which language family is it in? Geoff Plourde (talk) 17:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

You can take a look at Moldovan language and Moldovans. The controversy is described there. --Illythr (talk) 17:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The controversy is not as much about the difference, but about the term used for the name of the language. Moldova exists since 14th century, just as the language. However in 1871 Romania was created, hence they called the language "Romanian", therefore they invented all the typical Balkan crap about "historical Great Romanian lands, history, culture, etc, etc, etc..."--Moldopodo (talk) 09:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The language was called "Romanian" since the Romanian ethnogensis, long before the founding of the Moldovan state.--Olahus (talk) 16:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

It very easy to make suppositions when there's no way to prove something.Xasha (talk) 18:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, come off it. First, 1862, not 1871. Second, Moldavia is not Moldova. Third, terms like "Romanian" and "Romanian language" (which, Geoff, is identical to Romanian), were around long before 1871(!). Of course there are political motivations on either side, but the "Moldovan language" was only created by the Soviets in the 1920s for irredentist purposes (see MASSR). Biruitorul ^Talk 14:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

So then what is the name of this city in Romanian/Moldovan? Geoff Plourde (talk) 18:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The Moldovan name is the official name, i.e. Bender (quite logical considering Moldovan is de jure the only official language in Bender). The Romanian name for Bender is Tighina.Xasha (talk) 18:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh boy! Do you have a source for this weak-minded comment? --Olahus (talk) 16:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Moldovan Law. As for the Romanian one, I just suppose it's that one since all Romanians want to move this article to that name.Xasha (talk) 18:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

According to the US Department of State, Moldovan is another name for Romanian. What is the name in Romanian? Also, how many people here are Romanian Geoff Plourde (talk) 21:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

That's not really relevant. Romanian name was given above. About 2% of Moldova's population. According to the census made by the Transnistrian separatist authorities (the ones who de facto control Bender) the Romanian population in Bender is negligible ( See their map, with Romanians included in "other ethnic groups") Xasha (talk) 21:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

That's one side of the story. See Moldovenism for more background. I think the State Department is correct, and expresses a common scholarly view: Moldovans are part of a wider Romanian ethnic group, but in the 2004 census, the great majority declared themselves as Moldovan rather than Romanian, for two reasons: first, Moldovans were taught under half a century of Soviet rule that "Romanian" is a dirty word, associated with fascism; and second, Moldovans do have a distinct regional identity - just like people in various parts of Romania (Transylvanians, Oltenians, etc). Also, the languages are indeed the same in their literary form, but just as with other variants of Romanian, Moldovan people do have a distinct accent when they speak. Now, when the 2% number is tossed about, it only refers to a very technical definition: 2% of Moldovan inhabitants declared themselves Romanian in 2004. But you can't tell apart a Moldovan from a Romanian - the difference is a political one.

Let's try an analogy. Say that at the 1930 US Census, 70% of people from California said they were "American", 20% Mexican and 10% Japanese. Then in 1940, Mexico annexes California, and until 1991, when the independent California Republic is formed, inhabitants are told that America is evil, that they're Californians, and that they speak Californian. Then in 1991 there's talk California might rejoin the US, but LA County is occupied by the Mexican Army and the Republic's government is pro-Mexican, and keeps on telling people they're Californians and speak Californian. So of course by 2004, only 2% of people will identify as Californian, as opposed to 70% in 1930, and 68% will call themselves by the new, purely political designation of Californian. (And yes, this is an analogy and I'm aware there's no "American" ethnicity.) (Also, there's an analogous situation: see Demographic history of Montenegro.)

The situation in Moldova is sort of similar. Not exactly - bits of Bessarabia, the historical region that roughly overlaps Moldova, are now in Ukraine, and the Jews there were mostly either killed or fled during and after WWII, and some Russians and Ukrainians came in during the Soviet period. Nevertheless, 56.2% of people in Bessarabia were Romanian in 1930, and in 2004, 76% were Moldovans and 2% Romanians. Now of course, people can call themselves whatever they please, but we are in fact talking about the same group of people, nearly all of whom happened to adopt a different name. So while technically correct, saying that Moldova is "2% Romanian" rather obscures the issue. Biruitorul ^Talk 22:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Yet more sophistry from an ethno-rascist (reminiscent of interwar fascists) who can't accept Moldovans don't see themselves as Romanians. It doesn't matter that Moldovan self-identification predates the Soviet Union by at least 3 centuries (and even the notion of "Romanian ethnic"). And not at all that in the 200 years of census history in Bessarabia, the only one which didn't show a Moldovan plurality (actually not one Moldovan), was the one made in 1930 during the illegal Romanian rule. Stalin is the one to blaim for all.Xasha (talk) 22:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Xasha, what makes you believe that Moldovans don't see themselves as Romanians? --Olahus (talk) 16:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

User Olahus, what makes you blieve that Japanese don't see themselves as Italian?--Moldopodo (talk) 18:05, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Uh, WP:NOTAFORUM? WP:NPA? --Illythr (talk) 23:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Folks, here is a compromise that appears to be supported by policy. Regardless of what the official name is, there is a historical precedent for Tighina. Lets use the name used most frequently by scholars. What is that name? Geoff Plourde (talk) 16:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The most used name ist Tighina. I already prooved this in my edit from the beginnig of the discussion. Let's move it to Tighina. --Olahus (talk) 16:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I have carefully examined both sides here and have come to the conclusion that Tighina may be the appropriate term to use. Bender requires the use of a disambig. Also Tighina is used in both the Enyclopedia of World Geography and Encyclopedia Britannica. Geoff Plourde (talk) 21:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Britannica also uses Bendery more often that Tighina.Xasha (talk) 18:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Can you futher elaborate on what caused you to switch from this? --Illythr (talk) 21:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I am fine with the use of Bendery, if people will agree to it. Let me rephrase, I am simply pointing out that a strong case could be made for Tighina. Geoff Plourde (talk) 23:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The most used name ist Tighina. I already prooved this in my edit from the beginnig of the discussion. Let's move it to Tighina. I don't see any serious argument against my proposal. --Olahus (talk) 13:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

You just have proved that Tighina is the more common name in Romanian. This has nothing to do with English usage.Xasha (talk) 20:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

And how do you know that the English usage preffers the denomination Bender?--Olahus (talk) 16:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Per above, as well as this, the most common name used in English is actually Bendery. --Illythr (talk) 20:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

So, where should be moved the article: to Bendery or to Tighina? --Olahus (talk) 19:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I would prefer Bender (current name), as official; Bendery as a second choice, as unabiguous and (apparenty) more used, Tighina - third.

SwatJester makes a strong point below, as well. --Illythr (talk) 19:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

So then the consensus would be for Bendery? Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

See above. --Illythr (talk) 20:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal Mark II

An issue about names has come up before on the Gdansk/Danzig page. Community consensus determined that the article should be named Gdansk, as the current official name. Danzig is used when referring to the period it was in use. As consensus has already been displayed, consensus should be followed. The following is therefore proposed,

1. To eliminate the disambig problems and recognize the validity of both names, this article would be moved to Bendery (Tighina)
2. When referring to the current period, Bender or Bendery shall be used.
3. When referring to the period for which Tighina was the prevalent name, Tighina shall be used.
4. The lead shall contain all names.

Guys, this is actually better for both sides. It makes sure that people know they are in the right place. Also, in Eastern Europe disputes, people don't expect compromise. Lets prove them wrong. Because even if we are American, Moldovan, Romanian, or Russian, we are all still humans. Geoff Plourde (talk) 00:14, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Following Gdansk consensus, why don't wee leave Bender (official name) and Bender (disambiguation)?--Moldopodo (talk) 18:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Because if we touch the disambig, someone will scream bloody murder, because this entry will gain precedence over all others. The name translates out as either Bender or Bendery. Additionally, some people will be looking for Tighina and may not be aware of the name change. Bendery (Tighina) solves the disambig, shows the precedence of the official name, and acknowledges a popular legacy name. Geoff Plourde (talk) 18:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Gdansk is not at Gdansk (Danzig), and this article gives more visibility to "Tighina" than the Gdansk article to "Danzig", this being a concession we made to try to satisfy Romanians. All other proposals are already active now. See above why Bendery (Tighina) is not a valid compromise (I think I've said in 3 time till now.) As for your last argument: come'on... how many people older than 68 use Wikipedia? Even if they do, when they type Tighina they are redirected here.Xasha (talk) 18:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Gdansk does not need a disambig. This is a compromise that is meant to be acceptable to everyone. If the consensus is for Bendery, than Bendery it shall be. Either way, this dispute is taking up too much of everyone's time. Geoff Plourde (talk) 21:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

When the consensus cannot be reached, then the official version is the best we can have. So let's make it Bender.--Moldopodo (talk) 03:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Is Bender really the official name of the town? --Olahus (talk) 13:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Bender is the official name of the city[14]--Moldopodo^talk 15:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikisource :) Are you 100% sure that Bender is the official name of the city? Or, at least, the exclusive one? Look here in this report of the Moldovan Ministry of Environment and Natural resources, and the city is called Tighina, not Bender: [15]. As you can see, the denomination Tighina is used by governamental institutions. --Olahus (talk) 20:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Please, try to make an effort and change the stereotype of Romanian user on Wikipedia in Bonny style who does not care for sources, but fills the blank on all Wikipedia talk pags with useless info, basicly coming from his/her own head and nowhere else. You have to source. And, I for instance, do source. So you have to make it a habit to look for sources. On Wikisource I have provided the exact link to the official governmental legal portal of the Moldova, which is permanently updated (if you see, for this law, they already have modification of April 2008)--Moldopodo^talk 20:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Moldopodo, as you can see, I quote too. And I think my edits are very objective. Don't try to make personal offences against me. --Olahus (talk) 21:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

This is the law Moldopodo is referring to, in Moldovan, from the portal of the Moldovan Parliament: [16]. The law clearly refers to Bender, and only to Bender. There's no city/town/village called Tighina in Moldova according to Moldovan law.Xasha (talk) 20:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The link doesn't work.--Olahus (talk) 21:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

We can not touch the disambig without initiating a discussion at the talk page of the disambig. Every other article that is named Bender has a valid claim to that space. It translates out as either Bendery or Bender, so then let us use Bendery if consensus is for a Bender variant. We have three options right now. 1. File an RfC and agree to abide by the consensus established. 2. Stop debating and try to establish consensus. 3. Keep on debating.

I think the best option would be to file an RfC, as we seem to be unable to come to consensus. Can we agree to abide by the outcome? Geoff Plourde (talk) 20:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I am for starting the discussion at the disambig page.--Moldopodo^talk 21:01, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Then start the discussion, as there is no consensus, the status quo must be maintained.

[edit] Page protected

Protected due to edit war.

As a side note, The CIA World Factbook lists the city in Moldova as "Bender". Bender is also listed as a municipality on that page. Tighina is not mentioned anywhere on that page.The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) says Bender. The International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (IFRC) says Bender. The Council of Europe, European Committee to Prevent Torture lists the city as "Bender" and makes no reference to Tighina. As well AllModolva.com lists it as Bender, having once had the name "tighina" but not since the 16th century. Britannica makes brief mention of both names, on an online article dated 1991. The Tiraspol times uses Bender. Worldfootballtravel.com says Bender. VirtualTourist.com says Bender. I think it's abundantly clear which is the correct name.⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 23:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

So then, we have the correct name. Any valid objections? Geoff Plourde (talk) 23:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, yes:

• Britannica says "Tighina, also spelled Tigina , formerly called Bendery , Moldavian Bender" (the article name is Tighina) -- that is not "a brief mention of both names", it's a very clear statement (their very choice for the name of the article is a pretty strong statement in itself, especially in the context of... how to name our article).
• Encarta, same choice for the name of the article.
• The Columbia Encyclopedia, same choice, same explanation ("Tighina , formerly Bender or Bendery"); additionally, Bendery is a soft redirect to Tighina; and intriguingly, the article on Tighina reads "It was again renamed Tighina after Moldovan independence."

So, who do we trust? --Gutza ^{T T+} 20:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Not Britannica and Columbia, as their articles are based on obsolete data (note the formerly's): There was indeed a motion to rename the city in 1991, but it was dropped due to war. This is actually already covered above. Don't know about Encarta. I personally would trust Vecrumba on this one. --Illythr (talk) 21:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I follow, what part of "formerly Bendery" are you disputing? Or do you dispute Britannica's information according to which the city is called Bender in Moldova? (On a side note, I wasn't implying we should choose a user to trust, I was just stating the discrepancies between sources.) --Gutza ^{T T+} 21:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Those two say "formerly Bender or Bendery". The underscored part is factually incorrect. When I said I trust Vecrumba, I meant the sources he used in his research (especially since they confirmed my own findings ;-) ).

Plus, the heap of sources above, most notably, the CIA World factbook (dated 2008) and OSCE.

Oh, and there's Bonaparte's vote and the anon vote shopping, which generally highlight the Wrong Way To Do Things On Wikipedia. (I'm only partially kidding here.). :-) --Illythr (talk) 21:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Britannica doesn't say that, please read their article for yourself if you can't trust my copy/paste above. OSCE is not OSCE, it's an article in the OSCE Magazine (not too shabby, I admit, but still, it's not like it's some sort of formal classification by OSCE). The Red Cross also uses Wien for Vienna, should I rename? As for the CIA Factbook, I would have found that convincing if they had included Tighina in some manner to show it's demoted or obsolete (since the term is obviously in use, see above) -- the fact that they make no mention of it proves they simply defaulted to the official name without looking into it much. As for AllMoldova, Tiraspol Times and whatever other local sources, of course they call it Bender since... well, since that's what they call it. I can produce several sources similar to Worldfootballtravel.com and VirtualTourist.com but I don't think those get any weight (that is, unless counting blue links is what matters). --Gutza ^{T T+} 22:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Gutza! Since we haven't had the pleasure of crossing paths before, I just wanted to mention that some time back (but not eons), I was heavily involved in the Transnistrian conflict (actual and Wikipedian), having gotten interested in Moldova and Transnistria (and by extension, Romania) through some rather obscure Latvia-related connections. Over time I amassed an extensive collection of all the best and latest references by arguably the best scholars out there--Bendery is still used as the primary name, "Tighina, see Bendery." I'd rather be on your side of the argument, but there's no case without putting "nationalism/native" ahead of common English usage, which is not the goal. —PētersV (talk) 22:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Marius invited you to "verify a Russian text", because, since you're Latvian, you gotta speak Russian - hehe, that was an amusing moment... :-)

Hello, Vecrumba! I won't deny your motivations or honesty, but, with all courtesy and warmth, simply stating that you have great sources really isn't enough... I honestly don't want to be a moron, I'm trying to phrase this as courteously as I can, but you really need to indicate the sources you're using, best faith assumed. I honestly didn't come here with an agenda (and I actually ended up on this page by accident), but I simply did a search on Google and found three encyclopedias indicating Tighina. --Gutza ^{T T+} 22:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I do believe Peters already mentioned Magocsi and Charles King here... --Illythr (talk) 23:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, my bad. --Gutza ^{T T+} 23:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus for Bendery

I believe that consensus exists to move this to Bendery. This appears to be the easiest one to implement. Also, Google Maps translates it as Bendery. Should I have Swatjester move this page? Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement of Title Solution

After multiple months of discussion in which many good points were made, consensus has been reached as to the title of this article. There is no real established English name for this city due to its location. The official name as set down by Moldovan law, requires translation from the original Cyrillic. This leads to confusion as it can be written as Bender or Bendery. To use Bender, the disambig would have to be shifted and the competing interests of every other page known as Bender would come into play. To eliminate these concerns and guarantee uniqueness, Bendery was agreed upon as the title to use. Therefore, in accordance with consensus, this page needs to be moved to Bendery. Geoff Plourde (talk) 23:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

BENDERY

• Oppose. This is a Russian name, and it's internet English usage is in doubt. see #The_city_name_used_by_the_web_community section bellow. Nor it's an official (internationally recognized) name. --serhio ^talk 11:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support, although you got it a bit wrong: Bender is not a transliteration, because the official language of Moldova uses the Latin script. It is Bendery that is a (double) transliteration - first the Turkish "Bender" into the Cyrillic "Бендеры", then into the Latin "Bendery". However, since Bendery does indeed eliminate ambiguity of Bender and seems to be more widely used in modern English, I support this proposal. (I also dislike commas in location names.) --Illythr (talk) 07:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly support. Per Illythr and my own comments prior. —PētersV (talk) 15:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Probably the least worst solution which we can have here. User:Thedagomar, just for your information, Moldavian language uses Latin alphabet and there is no transliteraion required (that is why there is by the way the discussion on metawiki on renaming ro.wiki into mo-ro.wiki[17], of which you are probably already aware). Furthemore, even the official Moldavian legislation in Russian (this language is officially written in Cyrillic in Moldova) uses the term Bender (Russian: Бендер) and not Bendery (Russian: Бендеры). Ideally I would nevertheless see the article called Bender - since this perfectly corresponds to the Wiki policy when no English name can be established: use the official one. However, for the sake of the uniqueness, why not to move it Bendery. As for the so feared discussion of moving it to Bender (and the mess related to that page), so far, as I started the discussion there, I saw only one user on the talk page of Bender defending the case of supposedly the most popular searched subject under the term Bender - Futurama (honestly, have never heard, nor ever searched for this in my entire life). But hey, if the consensus is on Bendery, let's leave it so. For the sake of the uniqeness and for the sake of the end of this discussion... ;)--Moldopodo^talk 16:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out my error. As you can tell, I have very little exposure to Moldovan linguistics. Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

• Implied Support Xasha has previously indicated that this solution would be be acceptable. Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I am Xasha and I endorse the previous message. Xasha (talk) 21:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. This denomination is Russian and the Soviet Union don't exist anymore, don't forget it!!! Otherwise, we can move Lviv (the Ukrainian name) to Lvov (the Russian name), St. Petersburg to Leningrad, Nizhny Novgorod to Gorky etc. --Olahus (talk) 18:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

*Oppose--Flueras (talk) 18:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC) - vote by banned user.

BENDER

• Support. Based on the English most common usage. See the #The_city_name_used_by_the_web_community section. --serhio ^talk 11:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Despite of it's official caracter, the denomination Bender is not the only one used in official document. Tighina is more often used by the Moldovans and they are 2 other reasons to preffer "Tighina" (see below the voting for Tighina). Besides, what deonimation is actually "Bender" it's nor Romanian/Moldovan, nor Russian. It is ... turkish. And if we would preffer Turkish denominations, than let's start to rename Sofia to Sofya, Sarajevo to Saraybosna etc. --Olahus (talk) 18:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

You do not get the point, that no real English name appears to exist. Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

*Oppose --Flueras (talk) 18:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC) - vote by banned user.

• Oppose. Benedery is the most common English usage. —PētersV (talk) 19:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

TIGHINA

*Support. I support Tighina. That's the Romanian name of the city. Flueras (talk) 17:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC) - vote by banned user.

• Support. I support Tighina, from 3 reasons:
  • 1) it's the oldest name of the city,
  • 2) In Moldova it is the most used name of this city (see above the discussion from last week),
  • 3) this denomination is also widespread in official documents (together with the denomination "Bender"). --Olahus (talk) 17:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Benedery is the most common English usage. See comments below. —PētersV (talk) 19:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support, per Britannica, Encarta and The Columbia Encyclopedia. --Gutza ^{T T+} 20:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC) Upon further examination of the sources shown in this page I decide to abstain from voting, because I was unable to find solid ground for either of these options. --Gutza ^{T T+} 09:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

Comment I know it's an old saw, but it is the English Wikipedia and all the best current sources on Moldova and the Transnistrian conflict (and I've accumulated a fair number, and they are not cheap!) use Bendery. "Tighina" is a "see Bendery" entry in every index I have. My strong personal preference is Tighina, but, once again, its use as the primary name for the city is limited in English sources; not using "Bendery" will only lead to confusion for readers not intimately familiar with Romania and Moldova. What we prefer personally or nationalistically (and I've been accused of being an offender in that regard on more than one occasion) does not always make the best reference for the average English-reader. This has nothing to do with what the native name is, or the oldest name, or what's become the predominant English usage for any other city in Moldova, Romania, former Ottoman empire,... once, twice, or thrice transliterated,... it's only about what's the most common name an English-reader would have encountered when they were reading about Romanian-Moldovan unification, the frozen-zone conflicts and Transnistria, etc. It pains me that the answer is not my personal preference, but "Bendery" is what it is. The stated opposition to "Bendery" is not based on English usage. —PētersV (talk) 19:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment A vote shopping is currently underway among Romanian users (and a few unrelated users) by an anonymous IP address from Germany. I kind of wonder, who it is... --Illythr (talk) 20:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Note: The Encyclopedia Brittanica article is not a valid source, because it is part of the new, user-submitted britannica. It is not the traditional, peer-reviewed, version of the encyclopedia. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 00:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Alas, a thousand Romanians confirming Tighina is Romanian won't tell us anything we don't already know :-) The joys of consensus building! —PētersV (talk) 02:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Microsoft Encarta calles the city mainly Tighina. The article about this city is called Tighina. See here. --Olahus (talk) 19:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Also it's apparently been suggested they pander to nationalists. (Mentioned in WP Encarta article.) Personally, they are a software company whose only goal is money, not scholars, but that's just me (and knowing inside history of ugly business dealings...). That's why I prefer specific respected scholars on the subject when it comes to controversies, we know the authors' credentials. —PētersV (talk) 22:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

What subjective reason would have Encarta to prefer the denomination Tighina instead of Bendery or Bender ? Besides, the most famous German Encyclopedias, like Meyers and Brockhaus do also use the denomination Tighina. I doubt that they are doing it from subjective reasons. --Olahus (talk) 23:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

They all seem to have that copied off one source, that "Until 1990" part... As for German sources - we're not proposing to rename the German article here, although I'll have to make a similar check in the German language as well... --Illythr (talk) 23:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

BTW, google shows a similar situation in German as well, except "Bender" is the more prevalent name there, being labelled the "German name" as it is... Perhaps I should start a similar discussion there, once this one closes. --Illythr (talk) 23:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Illythr, you know very well that Brockhaus and Meyers are serious sources. --Olahus (talk) 15:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems I can edit the article in Meyers, which makes it as serious and reliable as Wikipedia. But the relevant text in both articles is pretty much identical to Britannica. If it was indeed last checked in 1991 or 1995, in can be obsolete. The population numbers, for example, seem to be very outdated. --Illythr (talk) 18:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] moving page

From the above discussion it is overwhelmingly clear that the consensus of editors on this page is to move the page to Bendery. Therefore, I am moving the page, and once that is done I will lift the page protection and reopen the article for editing again. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 00:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish name

Olahus, this information is already included in the Name section. Why do you keep reinserting it into the lead, creating a redundancy? The lead section is already cluttered with needless repetitions as it is. Excess names should be removed, not inserted there. --Illythr (talk) 18:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The city name used by the web community

People, I don't quite understand, what you are talking about?

Let's leave the improper discussions, and see how the city's name used in internet. I used the Google as search arbiter, bellow the results:

General pages

148,000 for Bender Moldova

101,000 for Bendery Moldova

62,900 for Bender Tiraspol

22,500 for Bendery Tiraspol

18,900 for Bender Transnistria

6,270 for Bendery Transnistria

139,000 for Bender Smirnov

3,240 for Bendery Smirnov

5,700 for Bender Basarabia

906 for Bendery Basarabia

English pages

102,000 English pages for Bender Moldova

17,200 English pages for Bendery Moldova

23,100 English pages for Bender Tiraspol

21,300 English pages for Bendery Tiraspol

Russian variations (with Bessa-)

3,420 English pages for Bendery Bessarabia

1,010 English pages for Bender Bessarabia

215,000 English pages for Bessarabia

35,800 English pages for Basarabia

Now as I can see, only the Russian variant converts to Bendery...

You can consult also the results of search of cities moldova --serhio ^talk 08:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Google is not God. The name was chosen to end a long dispute, because it is used in several reliable sources. Geoff Plourde (talk) 18:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)