Talk:Bench press
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[edit] Stuff that wound up above the table of contents
It would be very interesting to me, and probably to others, to know how much the various lifters weighed at the time they made their records. However, I have no idea where to look for this information. Perhaps someone could add that information to this article? Also, how much weight would the "average" person be able to bench press, for comparison? Whateley23 02:14, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I believe the statement about declined press working the upper pecs and inclined press working the lower pecs is reversed, but I'd like someone to agree before I change it.
The information on this page is seriously flawed and/or outdated. One of the lastest articles from the National Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research just published a study which disproves the long held belief that you can recruit the specific regions of the pectoral (upper, middle, lower) by varying the angle of resistance. The summary of the report stated that the pectorals either contract or they don't, regardless of angle. They did however find a difference in muscle fiber recruitment by varying hand positions (pronated, supinated, wide, narrow, etc). I wish I could find that article, I think it was in mid-2005. Oh, and the world record is far above 713, and has been for years now. Probably closer to 800 (drug tested!).
The author(s) of this article wrote, "Everyone experiencing problems with or pain in their shoulders should resort to the decline version." DO NOT DO THIS!!! If you are experiencing pain, in your shoulders or anywhere else you should either a.)improve your technique b.) consult a qualified trainer/coach c.)use lighter weight (which will help you use better technique). If you put your hand on a hot stove, and it hurt, would you keep doing it assuming that eventually the pain would stop?
- Im not sure this is worthy of the article, but when bench pressing it is very important to keep the scapulae retracted and shoulders pinned back on the bench - too many novices/intermediates push through a bench press with their shoulders, placing unnecessary stress on the shoulders, which leads to all kinds of shoulder problems (Rotator Cuff, AC joint etc). If you watch a video of powerlifters bench pressing their shoulders are pinned back tight! StrengthCoach 21:52, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
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- i made a few edits, feel free to discuss, ignore my above comment, i missed that in the article first time around (somehow?!?) StrengthCoach 22:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The world record reported in this article of 713lbs is a RAW record (and it is cleary stated).
This 2004 article puts it at 713lbs by Scot Mendelson - http://www.slate.com/id/2104915/
This one - http://www.bench-press.net/bench-press-kings.html also puts it at 713lbs,
and this 2005 article also puts it at 713lbs -http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0801/is_8_66/ai_n14834114 U R A GR8 M8 14:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I threw everything that wasn't under another topic under this heading to keep the talk page tidy. Hope that's all right with everyone. TheRuss 04:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] One-repetition fitness levels
Can somebody tell me why this is here? It has nothing to do with bench press other other than showing figures required for police for entering criteria? 130.15.194.74 21:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] World record
The article states the world record belongs to Gene Rychlak, but the Gene_Rychlak article itself states that his record was beaten by Scot Mendelson.
- I guess we haven't gotten around to changing it yet. Nothing is stopping you, however. Yankees76 14:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] strange advanced 'bodybuilder' bench press figures
i am unsure asto whether the figure for bodyweight is given in pounds (i cant imagine somebody weighing 246kg) if in pounds then: a person weighing 105-120lbs/47-54kg should have a bench press of 260lbs/117.93kg, and a person weighing 171-185lbs/77-84kg should have a bench press of 360lbs/163kg.
i think that is definitely not true, or achievable, except for those that are genetically gifted/assisted/or steroid users.
I hate to disagree with the comment above this but I must. As a person that never 'competed' in bodybuilding or in powerlifting; I broke the 400 lb. bench press when I weighed 215 lbs. At this point of my life (I was 22) I never even considered steroids. I ate right, worked out hard, slept enough and took supplements you can buy OTC.
Congrats to you (I'm not being sarcastic you should be proud of yourself) but I have worked out since I was 13 am a former personal trainer and also think they are ridiculous.Quadzilla99 00:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Those numbers are not normal for a natural, unequipped lifter not specifically doing powerlifting. In fact, looking at this years IPF worlds, I would say a few competitors in the 75k/82.5k class would struggle with 360lbs if they tried it unequipped. A lot of people probably aren't aware that they are genetically gifted in an exercise.
[edit] Form - Pinching shoulder blades?
I just tried this today and it was a lot harder to keep stable. I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else(for instance exrx.net doesn't talk about it) and I'm just wondering if this is really a good thing to be suggesting to people on a general encycopledia page when most people are gonna be having enough trouble keeping the bar balanced in the first place. Also, can someone reference where this info came from? Krymson 01:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
- The scapula must be retracted when benching using proper form. This is fairly common knowledge - at least amongst knowledgable or experienced lifters/bodybuilders. Some sources of reference include, [1], [2],and this one in particular (scroll down for picture)[3]. Hope this helps. Yankees76 15:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, those are good enough for me, but I do note that two of the three sources you gave me noted that this is for developing pecs and not for powerlifting. Krymson 12:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
- Arch and drive the legs into the floor so your upper back with scapula nicely retracted are driven into the bench. You will feel rock solid when you learn how to do this properly.
[edit] Barbell vs dumbell
"Can also be performed with dumbbells which incorporates less use of stabilizer muscles." It would be nice to have a quote saying that dumbells work less the stabilizer muscles than barbell. I agree with it but a dumb gym owner told me the opposite.
- They don't though. Dumbells use more stabilizers.Yankees76 13:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Average Bench Press
What's the source that states the average man who doesn't engage in strength training can bench between 115 and 150 pounds? Without a source, it sounds more like someone's opinion rather than actual fact. Odin's Beard 01:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Safety
The article mentions "closed grip" but many people might not realize that this means wrap your thumbs around the bar. In fact, the photo in the article depicts the opposite. Not wrapping the thumbs is a safety hazard. It is a rampant practice in gyms and I fear this battle is lost. Some say it recruits the pecs better this way, but that is nonsense..to recruit the pecs, use a wide grip, lower the bar high on the chest, and use vertical elbows. I think people like to show they can tempt fate. A H.S. kid died in my area last year doing this.
- So? Work on improving and updating the article with information you posted. Just find some sources for the info - if you're righr it shouldn't be too hard. BTW i doubt a thumbless grip would be the cause of a kids death - I'd be more inclined to believe it was more weight than he could handle along with a lack of proper spotting. Yankees76 03:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
The bar can slip off the palm of the hand very quickly, and without the bencher being able to slow the descent (as usually happens when the bencher begins to fail), the bar can free fall very fast, with or without a ‘proper’ spot. It doesn't matter if the person had ‘too much weight to handle.’ That's like saying it doesn't matter whether or not a person who died didn't have their seat belt on because they were doing 50 mph instead of the 45 mph speed limit. It doesn’t take a lot of weight dropping on someone’s upper chest to seriously injure or kill them.
[edit] Bench Shirts
Could do with a section, from someone with knowledge regarding the history of, different materials, styles and techniques employed when training/competing equipped.
[edit] "This record was slightly broken"
Is that, like, "a little bit pregnant"? Daniel Barlow 13:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome.Yankees76 15:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Citations needed
There's only one citation in the entire article. At bare minimum, we should aim to substantiate the claims about world records - not necessarily sworn affidavits, but specific information as far as which meet, what date, which federation, etc. would be great.
Beyond that, any reasonable sources to substantiate other elements of the article would be much appreciated - not just to prove it's true, but so people can conduct further research on the subject. I'll contribute what I can. TheRuss 05:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Separate page for bench press records
I'm not sure why the records are kept separate from the main article about bench press. Not that I'm saying it's necessarily right or wrong - I just don't know. Any relevant Wikipedia guidelines would be greatly appreciated. TheRuss 05:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] History
When I was a kid in the early 60s I worked out for a while at Fred Hofmeister's gym in Indianapolis. Fred claimed to have invented the bench press. Can anyone confirm or disprove that? --Dan (talk) 21:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- Sounds like Hofmeister was full of hot air. The bench press has been around since the turn of the century, if not earlier. --Yankees76 (talk) 02:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Big James Henderson
Is there any particular reason why we're listing the "heaviest drug tested bench press without any equipment" record? Isn't that a bit like listing the record for fastest 100m by a wheelchair athlete in the World record progression 100 metres men article? Shouldn't we just say he was the first RAW bench presser to reach 700 lbs. and leave it at that? --Yankees76 (talk) 20:54, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
No. This section is about records and the only difference between the lift of Mendy and Big James is Big James drug tested and Mendy chose not to. I think many would agree that there are notable differences between what people achieve under the influence of performance enhancing substances and what is done legally and legitimately in athletics. -- Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 08:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, I removed the "reference needs to be verified" requirement for criticalbench.com since their website should be just as reliable as powerliftingwatch.com which is used in Mendy's record and since there is no evidence on the criticalbench.com site that there is favoritism. -- Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 08:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
- The wording "The biggest IPF drug free bench press (RAW) was done by James Henderson at a bodyweight of 390 pounds in 1997 we believe" - particularly "we believe" does not imply that this website is particularly authoritative. Per WP:RS, articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable. While I personally am confident that Henderson was the first person to bench over 700 lbs. without a bench shirt, Wikipedia requires articles to be well-sourced. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged (such has Henderson's claims of being drug-free) should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. Please refer to the Wikipedia policy on Verifiability.
- With regards to the source for Mendleson's record, there are numerous other sources that confirm that particular record, and there are not additional claims other than the weight he lifted, and that it was unassisted - making it easy to verify. Other than Henderson's own personal site, there do not appear to be any other reliable sources that confirm this claim that I'm able to locate after performing a Google search. Please feel free however, to provide additional sources that I may have overlooked. --Yankees76 (talk) 00:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
As I said early, the "we believe" refers to the year the lift was done, not to the lift being drug free. Until we get to the bottom of this issue, we will place a "needs to be verified" on Mendy's record, remove the criticalbench.com cite, and just use the Guinness World Records cite for Big James. I will email criticalbench.com to see if they will respond to updating their information. Also, in order to verify the Mendy record, maybe we should find some more of the numerous sources that you mentioned to make sure there is no bias. This is a new topic to Wikipedia, but a very old topic in athletics. Big James Henderson's lift was done in the International Powerlifting Federation and under their strict anti-doping and anti-equipment policy. Mendy's lift and judging was sponsored by an equipment dealer. Because of the IPF and USPF high standards they are the only powerlifting organization recognized by the United States and International Olympic Committees. One could argue that since Mendy's record is only verified by a website and Big James' lift is in the Guinness Book of World Records that Big James' lift is the only one that should be listed here. I have emailed the IPF and the USPF for information on who holds their record, and whoever they return email me as their record holder should be posted as the drug-free champion. -- Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 09:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
- I strongly suggest you review Wikipedia's original research policy before you go to the trouble. Surely if Henderson's record is so notable, there must be numerous online reliable sources to support what you're trying to add here. If there isn't - is the "record" really even that notable? This comes back to my original question - the "heaviest drug tested bench press without any equipment" record is just like listing the record for fastest 100m by a wheelchair athlete in the World record progression 100 metres men article. --Yankees76 (talk) 02:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- Also, can you post an updated reference re: 1999 Guiness Book of World Records? If you're going to use it as a source, it should probably be reasonably up to date. 1999 is nearly a decade old. --Yankees76 (talk) 03:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- The anti-doping community should be as present in the Bench press record as it is in the Bench press world. No one who is a part of the powerlifting community denies that Big James Henderson was drug tested by the IPF and those same people know Mendy was not tested and they know Mendy's lift was not judged by a strict governing body like the IPF. My point is since the powerlifting world has made a clear distinction between those athletes who test for drugs and those who don't, shouldn't we do the same? If someone wants to accomplish something on dope, shouldn't the record have an asterisk? Doesn't it make it fair for those who choose not to cheat? Also, again, in order to verify the Mendy record, we should look for some more sources for Mendy's lift to make sure there is no bias towards him. If we can’t verify the lift with something besides a personal website, then I think we should take it down. In your repeated analogy, you liken Big James Henderson to a physically challenged athlete. Are you saying Big James was physically challenged because he chose to not use drugs? If you want to keep using this analogy, please explain your point clearly because I am losing the connection. As for the Guinness World Record, I guess we can update the entry when the record is broken and Guinness Media chooses to reprint who they think the Bench press World record holder is. Note: the lift was in 1997 so the record is more than a decade old and Big James held the record for six years prior to that. Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 09:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- Also, can you post an updated reference re: 1999 Guiness Book of World Records? If you're going to use it as a source, it should probably be reasonably up to date. 1999 is nearly a decade old. --Yankees76 (talk) 03:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
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- Wikipedia reports verifiable information reported in reliable sources. Given the internet, press sources are a tenuous source of information. Something like a world record should be easy to verify via the web. Based on this site, it appears that Kenneth Sandvik holds the record, not Henderson, but it's difficult to sort out what sources are reliable. Web fora and unreviewed random websites are out - given previous sources, the GBWR is the best we've got so far, and a record can hold for 10 years, but it would be nice to verify. My library does have a copy, I might be able to verify in the near future. WLU (talk) 23:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] E-mail
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- Wow. I just got an email response from Steve Denison whose bio is here. You will agree that he is an authority in this area and his email states that “No one has beaten Henderson's record without a shirt and drug tested.” He also stated "Mendelson's lift was sanctioned under the APF." I asked him if he had any other ideas on cross-checking bench press records and if I can post his email here. I have to admit that in his response he made me feel sheepish when he asked me if I was related to Big James. Two points for WLU and one apology. I am sorry. I was wrong. I was wrong. The first mistake was incorrectly citing my source and the other for not realizing WLU might assume I was related because of the same surname. I had trouble with my browser accessing the hickoksports.com link listed above, but I did a search on the IPF official website and found that at the 18th World Open Men's Bench Press Championship on 03/06/2007 in Denmark, Kenneth Sandvik born in Finland in 1975 completed a bench shirt assisted bench press 337,5 kg (744 lb) He drug-tested negative for this lift, but we all would agree because it is assisted, it would not replace the Big James Henderson shirtless lift. Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 20:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
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<undent>Unfortunately e-mails are unverifiable and do not count as reliable sources, it would be helpful if he could point to a publication of the record in a reliable source, and ideally a discussion of the different types of records extant. It's totally legit to break down records according to drug tested, shirtless, assisted, etc, but we really need to cite a discussion to verify the information rather than doing so ourselves. On a positive note, bench shirt has a wikipage, which makes it easier to discuss the differences between assisted and unassisted. If it was sanctioned by the APF, would they have a record of this either in print, or on their website? Publications by international federations, sanctioning and governing bodies would pass muster as reliable sources in my mind. WLU (talk) 20:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- Here is the email train for any interested. As for it being a reliable source, I have read the article on reliable sources, and I didn't find the area where it excluded email as a source. It seems to be verifiable. Also, in his email, he does list websites as sources to the lift. I think we are done here, right? Good work everyone! Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 21:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
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- From: (e-mail redacted)
- Sent: 2/27/2008 6:21:51 PM
- To: [USPF] Karen Matthews (e-mail redacted)
- Dear Karen, I am interested in getting current USPF record information on the bench press. My current information says that Big James Henderson still holds the heaviest lift at 711 lbs. Can you please help me verify or deny this? I looked everywhere on the site and am having trouble finding the info for all-time lifts. Thank you for taking my email.
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- From: [USPF] Karen Matthews (e-mail redacted)
- Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:23 PM
- To: (e-mail redacted)
- I can help you verify. I show Jeff Peshek, (Masters 40-45) 308.5 weight class Did a 744 lbs single Bench in August 06 for the American Record for the USPF. Hope this helps. What weight class and age was the lift in?
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- From: Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (e-mail redacted)
- Sent: 2/29/2008 4:40:16 AM
- To: [USPF] Karen Matthews (e-mail redacted)
- Supposively James Henderson born in 1965 bench pressed 711 lbs on 7/13/97 at an USPF/IPF meet in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. James must have weighed about 390 lbs. Can you confirm or deny this? Also, as far as Jeff Peshek, is there a link to the site you can give me to cite for this record and I am assuming it was USPF drug tested an judged to be without a bench shirt? Thank you so much for returning my email and helping me get the facts.
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- From: [USPF] Karen Matthews (e-mail redacted)
- Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 7:56 AM
- To: [USPF] 'Steve Denison' (e-mail redacted)
- Hi Steve, Can you help this person? 1997 was before my time in PL. THanks Karen
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- From: [USPF] 'Steve Denison' (e-mail redacted)
- Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 11:04 PM
- To: [USPF] Karen Matthews (e-mail redacted)
- Cc: (e-mail redacted)
- That's a true statement about James Henderson. Jeff Peshek's American bench record of 744 is posted online here:
[4] - Jeff Peshek's bench record was not drug tested and he used a bench shirt in the Aug 19, 2006 USPF Senior National Powerlifting and Benchpress Championships in Chester, WV.
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- From: (e-mail redacted)
- To: [USPF] 'Steve Denison' (e-mail redacted)
- Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 6:58 AM
- Dear Steve, I am trying to edit the Bench Press Record for Wikipedia and I have stepped into a lot of controversy concerning Big James Henderson. Is his lift in Philadelphia published by USPF or IPF on the net anywhere? Was it drug tested? Did he wear a shirt? Was Scott Mendelson's lift drug tested? Did he wear any type of bench shirt? Was Mendelson's lift judged under the strict USPF/IPF standards? Has there been anyone else that has benched more than Big James Henderson in an IPF/USPF meet without a shirt and drug-tested? It would be great if I could find a link to any official records. My main objective is to question any lifts for Wikipedia articles that are not conducted in an organization such as the USPF or IPF. Thank you. I appreciate the help.
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- From: [USPF] 'Steve Denison' (e-mail redacted)
- Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 10:15 AM
- To: (e-mail redacted)
- Jeff, First off, are you related to James Henderson? 2nd, who are you? I've never heard of you at any Powerlifting meet. You can use www.google.com to find just about anything. Type in: James Henderson, bench press, USPF. Also Go to IPF website and look for results on left side. http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/. There's a search box on the IPF site as well. James Henderson was drug tested for all his record benches and passed everyone of them and he never wore a shirt. No one has beaten Henderson's record without a shirt and drug tested. Scot Mendelson's lift was not drug tested and he never wore a shirt when he did 715. I personally witnessed his 701 bench with no shirt in San Francisco in Oct 2002. Mendelson's lift was sanctioned under the APF.
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- From: (e-mail redacted)
- Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 11:11 AM
- To: [USPF] 'Steve Denison' (e-mail redacted)
- Dear Mr. Denison, Thank you for your prompt response. No, I am not related to Big James, and I have no history in the sport of powerlifting. I am a frequent contributor for the website Wikipedia in the area of bench press. I have been trying to contact someone to verify Big James Henderson's current drug tested raw bench press record of 711. There doesn’t seem to be a specific page that addresses the lift specifically and its current significance. Many sites do not state if a lift was assisted and tested, which are important. What little I have been able to find out is the best source of powerlifting information is the USPF/PLF. Thank you so much for taking the time to do verify Big James Henderson’s current record still stands. The Wikipedia Bench press article is a difficult one to edit because of all the different organizations and regulations that come with the powerlifting world. I thought it would be appropriate for Wikipedia to publish the drug tested press of Big James alongside Mendy's 715. Please let me know if I can use your email as a Wikipedia fact reference. I am assuming you are the powerlifting authority currently recorded at the site http://www.powerliftingca.com/AboutMe.htm. If you don’t wish to be used as a reference, could you please refer me to another citable authority on drug-tested unassisted bench press records? I appreciate your solid explanation and look forward to hearing from you again.
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- From: [USPF] 'Steve Denison' (e-mail redacted)
- Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 12:08 PM
- To: (e-mail redacted)
- Here are several websites that mention Henderson's bench.
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- [6]
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- With the IPF you can always know a big lift was drug tested. It doesn't need to say it. You are welcome to use my email.
- Steve Denison
- Email: (e-mail redacted)
- Website: www.powerliftingCA.com
- 661-333-9800 cell
- 206-338-4371 K7 Fax
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(undent)Here is why E-mails aren't good - I got an e-mail yesterday from Steve Denison saying that the world record was broken by Jim Fixx in 1973 and has never been broken since. And the prime minister of Malaysia also sent me an e-mail saying the same thing. And I've got three e-mails from three different world-leaders in physical fitness saying that the world record for benchpress is 900 pounds held by Sue Demiko, half-human, half-ant. Who do we believe? I've got five e-mails, you've only got one.
E-mails are inherently unverifiable, I see it as common sense, but just in case, I've brought it up at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#E-mail. The only way to verify is for you to hand out your e-mail address and password, they're self-published sources, mainstream information should be easy to verify anyway. I made a couple of changes to the e-mail - corrected the first weblink, bracketed the rest to shorten, redacted all e-mail addresses, posting them on a public website like wikipedia can lead to massive spamming (I think that's the rationale, every time I've ever seen an e-mail address posted, an admin redacts it very soon after). WLU (talk) 22:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
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- I want to say first off that I congratulate Jeffrey Pierce Henderson on his energy, initiative, and commitment to Wikipedia in contacting Mr. Denison and getting his opinion. These are characteristics that Wikipedia can really use. Unfortunately, however, emails are not reliable sources for this kind of thing. As I am sure JPH can understand, people could pretend that that they had received emails from just about anybody, and claim anything they like. I personally don't doubt for a second that JPH is accurately reporting an email he has received. But unfortunately not everybody is so honest, and WP has to make rules to stop the bad apples from affecting the encyclopedia at large. Hence the rules that information we include has to have been published by RS, sources that have been checked by other eyes. But like I said, JPH, I hope you aren't discouraged, and will continue with to contribute with all the energy you evidently possess. --Slp1 (talk) 00:17, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
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- WLU, I think you can check the headers on an e-mail to see its origin like this user does User:Millosh/Permissions_from_Robert_Elsie. Since the e-mail is not the original source, I don’t think we have a verifiability issue. Steve has provided contact information. He has given permission to cite him in his e-mail and permission to contact him using pwrlftrs AT msn.com. There is no doubt he is a representative of the International_Powerlifting_Federation. You can’t find a better third party reference for bench press records. He is definitely not a self-published source. More like the published professor of a peer-reviewed journal that specifically covers powerlifting. Also, Slp makes the statement that e-mails are not reliable sources, but RS has no bans on using emails. I found this Wikipedia_talk:Cite_sources/archive19#Emails.3F and it talks about using the OTRS system verifying if the email belongs to a USPF official like Mr. Denison. Maybe this should be considered further. After searching for examples of authors using e-mails as sources it was funny to find these: AIAW_Champions, History_of_wikis#_note-mail, and my favorite History_of_Wikipedia#_note-wikipedia-l-000671. Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 03:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, JPH, but this really is an example of Original research. "Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source." An email is not a reliable, published source. It is definitely self-published as there is no editorial oversight of what he has written, just as there is none in "self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings" that are listed in the self-published part of the verifiability policy. It seems clear to me that emails would be a 'similar source' as mentioned there. Unfortunately, other people using emails on other articles is not a reason for doing so here. But let's focus on the real problem... you need a reliable source for this claim about Big James Henderson. Surely there is a report in a powerlifting magazine or a local newspaper about his accomplishment? Does the International_Powerlifting_Federation publish a list of records? Let's not fixate on the email and find a reliable source for the information. If it is important someone somewhere will have recognized the fact in a reliable source.Slp1 (talk) 15:30, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- WLU, I think you can check the headers on an e-mail to see its origin like this user does User:Millosh/Permissions_from_Robert_Elsie. Since the e-mail is not the original source, I don’t think we have a verifiability issue. Steve has provided contact information. He has given permission to cite him in his e-mail and permission to contact him using pwrlftrs AT msn.com. There is no doubt he is a representative of the International_Powerlifting_Federation. You can’t find a better third party reference for bench press records. He is definitely not a self-published source. More like the published professor of a peer-reviewed journal that specifically covers powerlifting. Also, Slp makes the statement that e-mails are not reliable sources, but RS has no bans on using emails. I found this Wikipedia_talk:Cite_sources/archive19#Emails.3F and it talks about using the OTRS system verifying if the email belongs to a USPF official like Mr. Denison. Maybe this should be considered further. After searching for examples of authors using e-mails as sources it was funny to find these: AIAW_Champions, History_of_wikis#_note-mail, and my favorite History_of_Wikipedia#_note-wikipedia-l-000671. Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 03:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
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- First off, an apology to JPH if I came across as mocking in my previous post, I'm sick and my communication skills are off. I used those examples in order to give the extreme version of using e-mails to verify, not to poke fun. I understand why you want to use e-mails as a source, but they just don't work. The entire thing is just a series of characters, and a dedicated fraudster can build such a display with enough time and malice. I'm not saying you are doing so JPH, but what applies to one article must apply to all. Also, consider that if people want to verify what Denison himself said, they would need to e-mail him. Given wikipedia's prominence, that could lead to thousands of e-mails each day, asking about this subject. Not something I want to dump on his head. Also, there must be other sources that cite these records - perhaps you could ask Denison about them? Magazines and newspapers are legit, so if they're there, even just in print, that works. One of the great advantages of having experts like Denison is that they should be aware of publications that document the records, so he may be a good person to ask about published sources. Basically echoing what Slp1 said. WLU (talk) 16:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
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