Talk:Ben Yehuda Street bombings

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Contents 1 Page move 2 Entirely POV 3 More info and page move 4 1948 Casualties

[edit] Page move

I propose changing the title of the thread to ben yehuda street massacre. with bombing to link to this one. Amoruso 23:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[notification: section title added]. I see you moved the page today and I have moved the page back. The absence of replies is not consensus, and 3 days is too short a time. You may be right that the page should be moved, but you should allow for discussion. Further, you did not move the page correctly as you lost the history of the page in the process, neither did you do the redirects. -- Steve Hart 16:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[notification: a comment was posted on the talk page of the new page after the page move (before I moved the page back). I've copied the comment (below) A note is left on the other talk page, plus the user's talk page, that I've copied the user's comment, but it will not turn up in the user's history] -- Steve Hart 16:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This page needs to be moved back to its old namespace, the new one is inherently POV. Eixo 15:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me ? It's POV to say that there have been massacres here ? Well in that case, I want to delete the world "massacre" from all entries in wikipedia. Wikipedia's articles at the moment are taking a strong POV stance where usually any death of arabs is a massacre and any death of jews is an incident, bombing or a riot. It is not new of course - it's quite a habit, but wikipedia should try to aim to be NPOV as it's one of its pillars. Those able should re-label the page into "ben yehuda massacres" as soon as possible. This is in fact listed as a massacre on other pages by the way, there's no objection to call it a massacre from anyone, so it's just procedural here. For historic reasons, this is still called bombing, no other reason. The bombing should redirect to "massacres". I'm sure there are no legtimate objections to this. Amoruso 21:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Otherwise we should rename 'Deir Yassin massacre' to 'Deir Yassin battle'. I totally agree with the move. We will give it until Sunday night (Israeli time). If nobody objects by then, either me or Amoruso will move it to 'Ben Yehuda Street massacres'. By the way, since this article is about all terror attacks ever on Ben Yehuda street, the title should be in the plural - bombings/massacres - in any case. --Daniel575 | (talk) 10:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. First of all, you already have an objection by Eixo. Second, trying to force a decision this way - "We will give it until Sunday" is not the way it works. I've already mentioned to Amoruso on his talk that Wikipedia's naming guideline states that articles get the name most commonly used in the outside world. So, sources have to be presented proving which name is most commonly used, followed by discussion and some sort of consensus. That's the way it works. -- Steve Hart 13:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Entirely POV

This entire article appears to be written as an excuse for massacre. The cause of any bloodthirsty act can always be traced to something else, an attempt to blame the victims. And yes, these acts were deliberate targeting of civilians, thus massacres, unless, of course, one thinks that Arabs are too sweet and pure to have ever committed a crime of their own. By the way, Hamas started the 90's round of violence, with Arafat's wink. Remember the bus bombings that followed the Oslo accords?

The logic appears to be this: If Arabs kill Jews riding on a bus, well, ya gotta understand how they feel, humiliated and all that. Random mass murder is a reasonable response to not getting everything they want. And if they do it again, it's ONLY because Israelis gave them payback, as if they wouldn't massacre anyone on their own accord because they felt humiliated and all that.

There is no excuse for any of this. At Oslo, the Palestinians gave up the right to massacre anyone.Scott Adler 10:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, as currently written, I can't see much wrong with the article. What specific problem do you have? The only odd thing is that there are hardly any references for the bombings, but two references to peace and anti-occupation groups. Mewnews (talk) 10:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More info and page move

I suggest this article be significantly expanded with info about the street beyond just bombings that took place there. It's an important part of modern jerusalem and there's a lot more to say about it. Consequently, it should also be moved to "Ben-Yehuda Street," which is currently just a redirect. I haven't done the move yet because, as of now, the article is just about the bombings. nadav 22:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

This entry is a long and developed one dealing with the dozens of terror-related events that happened in this outdoor mall. It would be a pity if we had to have two different articles trying to squeeze into one. It makes more sense to me to just have a separate Ben Yehuda Street entry that deals with the mall and its history etc., and to leave information about the attacks and such here. Tewfik^Talk 06:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The attacks are an important part of its history. An article about the street without this content would be pretty short, so I prefer to include the information here so the reader can get a full sense of the place. But right now that's a nonissue since there's no other content anyway. If you're planning to write about the street itself, go ahead and make in place of the redirect if you desire. We can figure out later whether or not they should be merged. BTW, good job on Jaffa Road. I was considering writing that article but didn't find the sources. Best, nadav (talk) 07:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It is like saying that an article about London should be filed under "London Terrorism" and focus only on IRA and Islamist terror bombings in London. Every place can have specific incidents associated with it, but it also has its own history which is separate. People who are interested in the bombings may not be interested in the cultural life in Cafe Atara or the historical significance of Eliezer Ben Yehuda! Mewnews (talk) 10:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1948 Casualties

There are various figures for 1948 casualties listed at http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Ben_Yehuda_Bombing.htm and references thereof, ranging from 46 civilian dead and two soldiers to 60 dead (latter is from Collins and Lapierre - 54 dead plus 6 died of injuries). Someone may want to update the section.