Talk:Belzec extermination camp

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We need to make the distinction between German = run by Germans and German = situated in Germany. I hope this compromise works:

  • Run by Germans
  • Who were Nazis
  • Situated in Poland

I edited out the explanation of what the General Governement was. We have a separate article on it and trying to explain this complex matter in just one sentence is not enough and might be misleading. The sentence that was there might've lead someone to think that the GG was some sort of a collaborationist government, while it was anything but this. The rest of the proposals seem ok with me. Halibutt 17:33, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)

According to historian Witte, gasoline engines were used.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sobibór_extermination_camp http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Peter_Witte

--85.140.12.4 15:34, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Kurt Gerstein - checking his testimony is embarrasing. He obviously wasn't there or had some other problem with observation. He claimed Zyklon B - there were more methods used at Belzec than there were witnesses and historians. Don't you think that one method should be settled on and either explain the others away or at least ignore them - if you are allowed to. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.92 (talk • contribs) 19:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Romani

The Romani people were also killed en masse at Belzec. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Porajmos.jpg

Yeah. Why it's all "Jews"? --HanzoHattori 09:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ditch

"The ditch was originally excavated for of military reasons, now it was likely to serve as the first huge mass grave." Did it or didn't it? Anyone? Rich Farmbrough 17:09, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe the wiki article on Richard Krege states that with ground penetrating radar he was unable to find any pits - large or small. Has his work been verified - scientically not by verbal debate.

[edit] Death toll

600,000 is not an option. It is an outdated Soviet-Polish estimate, that has been superceded by Hoefle's number. Arad has been able to prove 414,000 from known sources ("Belzec, Sobibor, Teblinka", p. 127), NOT 519,392. Thus, Belzec death toll is known more or less precisely, rounded it is 435,000 Jews. Maybe there were a couple of thousands Gypsies, but sources are needed for this. They don't change the overall picture.

"It is unclear whether the telegram includes Jews killed during deporations or in transit, or the date at which the count was taken, but it establishes an authoratative lower bound from the death toll at Belzec."

Wrong. Unless it is proven that there were more victims, it establishes the authoritative toll itself, not the lower bound. The phrase "or the date at which the count was taken" reveals ignorance - this is the data for the whole of 1942. Belzec worked as extermination camp only in 1942, so this is its complete death toll. --84.167.53.142 21:11, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

You are right, I was using quotes about Arad's numbers from another source which wasobviously incorrect; looking at Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka does give the 414,000 number. And of course Belzec worked only in 1942, I meant the starting date of the statistics given by telegram was unclear, which was an objection raised by Gord McFee. Thanks for the help on cleaning this up. --Goodoldpolonius2 21:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Oops! It so happens I was wrong about Arad. Let me explain. Witte and Tyas (who discovered the document) wrote:
""Arad counted 414,000 from identified towns and townships, estimating 600,000 as the lowest possible number..."
Robin O'Neil, whose article comes up when searched for "414000 Arad" also repeats the claim:
" Yitzhak Arad concluded from published sources 414,000, but estimated 600,000 as the actual lowest figure." http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/belzec1/bel160.html
Arad's language midled three scholars - and me with them. But of course, on a second reading, Arad says "IN THIS STAGE OF THE OPERATION" - i.e., from July to December. And his table does indeed exceed 500,000.
I should note, however, that it doesn't mean that Arad can be used as an argument against Hoefle. Arad's methodology is described on pp. 380, 381 - he, of necessity, relied on such vague materials as Yizkor books, made assumptions about the number of Jews per wagon, etc. Arad's numbers are not clad in stone. (Neither are Hoefle's, but they're inherently more reliable). I think I will, however, amend the article to give a little bit more perspective on estimates. --84.167.53.142 22:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Very well-done and researched addition, thanks. --Goodoldpolonius2 01:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)



The guards and SS were housed across the road in two cottages. How many guards and SS were at Belzec. Two cottages seem too few, unless Belzec had a very small contingent. Also the study mentioned ( in main article " Remains of the camp") gives no link other than a Reuters report. Where can this study be read? Link?


Trying to find an independent source for Gora etal the only mention seems to be circular references. PS This and many/most holocaust wiki articles seem to be copied( or distributed ) from very proJewish - as in not scholarly - sites. Is this wiki's intent, I thought these were independent - somewhat originally written pieces. If these are all just copy and paste then why not supply the original copy and paste site also or only. No real need to search the web and run into exactly the same article multiple times.



Wiki articles on Hoefle and Korherr ( and their links ) get the name of one of the camps wrong - used the Allies postwar name for it not the German name. Has this ever been cleared up. The Hoefle memo also talks about arrivals not deaths. Much of the evidence seems to point to Belzec being a stop over point, not even a camp of permanence - probably why it seemed to disappear so completely - Krege et al were never even able to find a foundation of note ( his research of course is open to revision - GPR owners know where to go).

Krege's so-called evidence is nebulous and the man is NOT an GPR expert. His analysis of the data is deeply flawed. Moreover, have you even read the article, which mentions the archaeological work done at Belzec, which discovered the mass graves? Darkmind1970 11:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


Krege is an electrical engineer I believe. If anyone has a more qualified individual then he should step forward. If his analysis is deeply flawed then where is there a better analysis. A shovel could clear this up quickly but why spoil the suspense I guess. Yes the work by Kola, I hope is what you mean. Of 236 bore holes, he only mentions 137 of which only 2 are labeled as having human remains. How he extrapolated to 33 mass graves is part of his analysis that I missed - please help with a link to his methods if you have stumbled onto it. Thank you. 159.105.80.141 14:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


Jan Karski - in his book "The Secret State" says that Belzec was a transit site. He, in 1942, saw no gas chambers and saw trains "leaving" full of prisoners. Source - his book, he teaches somewhere in the US, or did.159.105.80.141 15:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One Third of the Holocaust

One Third of the Holocaust Has also a section on Belzec. I think the 600.000 dead story tellers are taking us for a ride. Btw.: Was site used for internment, while Poland was ruled by the Communists?! 41.242.222.240 16:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

That's a well known piece of Holocaust denial crap. Please don't claim to be thinking unless you actually are. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 11:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


Per some historians there was very little infrastructure at this camp - transit camp only. Karski - in a book - I believe mentioned seeing trainloads of people "leaving" the camp after a short stopover. There wasn't enough for buildings to interest the commies, and there has never been found any appreciable burial sites of any time period.159.105.80.141 (talk) 21:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

WHich historians?Galassi (talk) 21:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


O'Neil, Gora, etc..... in 1998-2003 I believe did etensive research at Belzec. After their archaelogy dig they came up with very little, at least if they "proved" their point they have been unexpectedly quite. Their published paper appears very general, very long but very general. I hope to see a fuller paper done by them someday. The tone of their paper looked more like ardent advocates than detached researchers, but maybe they will prove me wrong.159.105.80.141 (talk) 20:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Unless the idea of Belzec as a "transit camp" can be verifiably corroborated with the abscence of almost all of the 434500 deportees sent to Belzec, the Nazis' own confessions, and the 33 mass graves at Belzec across an area of 21 square kilometers, then this notion has no place on Wikipedia. WilliamH (talk) 18:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


Karski - and probably others - wrote that trains left full of prisoners. He of course didn't have a full count, but unless he is considered untruthful he is one source - there are few sources and no real forensic evidence for the numbers above.159.105.80.141 (talk) 12:38, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Karski never saw any trains full of prisoners leaving from Belzec because he was at Izbica, which was a transit camp. For this reason, the trains of people were not going from Belzec, but to Belzec to be destroyed. Of the mass graves at Belzec found before the placement of the memorial, all of them contained human remains and/or evidence of burnings. Given this, it would be impossible to physically account for the 434500 figure and to demand so would simply be considered unreasonable burden of proof. Scholars are not at liberty to ignore historical sources and violate Polish law based on an argument from ignorance just because a few people cannot, or choose not to accept the incontrevertable. WilliamH (talk) 15:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


Yes, I have heard that Karski is now unsure of where he spent the 1940s. When he wrote and edited his book =, he seemed quite positive that he was at Belzec - he is the unusual man whose mind gets better with age. 159.105.80.141 (talk) 21:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he was mistaken and he accepted that. He never set foot in Belzec. But 434500 others did. To what extent have any of them supported your notion that Belzec was a transit camp? From which position and with which evidence have they (and the human remains across an area of 21 square kilometers) been able to do this? WilliamH (talk) 22:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


Then Karski must have witnessed all the stuff he reported at Izbica. The only problem is that Izbeca was a transit site. So he witnessed what didn't happen at Izbeca and he wasn't at Belzec - it's getting more confusing all the time.159.105.80.141 (talk) 12:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You are aimlessly stating what has already been established. Karski obviously couldn't have witnessed what was going on at Belzec if he wasn't there, no matter what he insisted. I do not see how this is confusing. You still make no effort to account for the vast amounts of mass graves, and accordingly, the absence of almost all of the people who were sent to Belzec. By all means contribute to Wikipedia with information from verifiable, accurate sources, but until you are able to do this then I see little reason to continue this facile discussion. WilliamH (talk) 14:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


I'm glad we have been able to conclude that Karski knew nothing about Belzec or Izbeca so quickly. Maybe we should not so easily dismiss one of the major witnesses so readily, but so be it - I believe this taints all his "contributions". The work done on finding the mass graves, I believe, is less than conclusive. The report I read by Robin O'Neil, Gora, et al was less than a convincing scientific effort. Maybe you have some other reports, etc you are referencing. Others - deniers - have done more scientific studies and found very few graves/bodies, about what you would expect in a place where people were only held over for transfer(oddly agreeing with Karski's original assertions). Any link to reports etc will be appreciated - I may have read Gora et al when you meant other reports I have missed.159.105.80.141 (talk) 16:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"I believe this taints all his "contributions" - No, it just means you've constructed an argumentum ad hominem fallacy based on the "falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus" principal. This is not a house of cards. WilliamH (talk) 21:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


It certainly taints his testimony on Belzec etc - believers must agree with this, their own idea. At least the acceptance of his "falsus in uno" appears agreeable with all. His "omnibus" probably should be looked at, particularly dealing with related subjects. We have to be careful of the argumentum pro hominem fallacy of "veritas in uno, veritas in omnibus" or the sinister "falsus in uno, veritas in omnibus -1" fallacy. Any links on the definitive studies?159.105.80.141 (talk) 12:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


footnote [1] cites a wikipedia article that doesn't even mention Belzec - Is this legit. Also the fact being cited comes from the arrival numbers given in the Hoefle memo - another wikipedia article. Is footnote[1] a misprint? Are ther any other sources for the 434,500 number other than Hoefle? Wikipedia appears to be breaking new ground - most other reliable sources give much higher - rarely the same or even near each other but different and higher. Any source or is this original research?159.105.80.141 (talk) 16:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)