Talk:Belle Vue Zoo

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[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 02:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gardens and amusement park

This article says that a ride was purchased from London Festival Gardens when it closed it 1977, but the Battersea Park article says that the Gardens closed in 1974. Is 1977 right? --Malleus Fatuarum (talk) 13:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Yup, that's what my research says. As the Battersea Park article wasn't cited I amended it. --WebHamster 14:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I've just done a quick check on Google and can only find one mention of a 1974 closure. In fact the entry in the WP article looks like a straight copy and paste from the above site. --WebHamster 14:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions for improvement

This is a really good article and I've done a number of minor edits which I hope makes it scan better. These are mostly a matter of style and I've done them section by section so the can be easily reverted if others don't agree. I would like to suggest a few things that could be explained further to improve clarity.

  • 1/ An expanation of "carting customers" in the early history section. I presume this means working men using handcarts but it could be taken refer to the sport of dog carting.
  • 2/ An explanation of the "Hollow blasted oak" in the financial difficulties section. Was this a living tree?
  • 3/The date of Ellie May's euthanasia would round off the last sentence of the paragraph.
  • 4/ In the Gardens and Amusement park section what does "the main concessioniare Al Warbuton" mean exactly?
  • 5/ There's section called "Belle Vue (Manchester) Lt. Mk 1 (or maybe it's Mkl)" - was there a Mk 2?

Richerman (talk) 14:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

  1. Yup, the carting customers were men using carts to transport stuff
  2. The section of the book that mentions this says "Jennison's own attractions began in a modest way. On 12th April 1841 a footrace was held in which John Grimshaw of Gorton beat William Walker of Stockport. In the same year. a local landmark, the "Hollow Blasted Oak" of Yew Tree Farm Gorton was moved to the Gardens after a supposed existence of 500 years."
  3. I don't have a date for it unfortunately, but I'll see what I can find.
  4. A lot of the smaller rides and attractions in the amusement park were owned and run by third parties. These sorts of rides were known as "concessions". The guy who owned the majority of them was Alf Wadbrooke.
  5. Yup, I've labelled it as Mark one because, and I can't remember the dates at the mo, there was a big change round in the organisation. I suppose it can be removed for the time being as I can see that it could be confusing at the moment.

I still have to add a couple of what will end up as large sections. There were a couple of exhibition halls in the Gardens that were major venues for music contests/concerts, wrestling matches and various other events. The speedway section still has quite a bit of info to be added. In fact, there is still a lot more info to be added all round. So much so I'm wondering if sub-pages may be the way to go. For example, I have a list of all the battle enactment firework displays, c/w their date and title. I have no idea where to put it, if indeed it should be put anywhere. To give an idea The Belle Vue story is 84 pages of A4 size containing 3 column text in 10pt Courier. There's an amazing amount of info in it. Obviously a lot of it is unsuitable for inclusion but even figuring out what is what is suitable and what isn't is part of the problem for me. So basically what I'll do is add what I think is probably suitable and you guys can trim out the chaff? There's so much info in the one book I've had to scan it into a PDF so I can do text searches. The info is all over the place and not always in chronological order. BTW, many thanks to both of you for your overseeing me, it's much appreciated. --WebHamster 14:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Glad to help, its an excellent article. Have you found anything about the fea circus? I remember seeing it in the 60's in a tiny circular booth - these things were a real historical curiousity. Richerman (talk) 15:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Sure have: "New attractions for 1960 included a flea circus, run by a "Professor" Tomlin and his wife, and a side show called Invisible Rays. Pepino and his miniature circus now featured regularly all year round and Belle Vue became a place of retirement for the circus's ageing proprietor.". This is what I mean, there are stacks of little things like this, but I have no idea what should be included and what shouldn't. So I'll work on the assumption that I should put them in, then let someone else take them out if they are so inclined. I do have to say though, that this is also a blast from the past for me too, I'm also finding it very interesting which is the main reason I bought the books after loaning them from the library. I didn't want to give them back but luckily found them on Amazon, who only had one of each in stock! --WebHamster 16:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Well the flea circus is so unlikely to happen now that I would have thought it should go in. Of, course, the difficulty is not to copy the whole book but you're doing fine so far. I saw the book "The story of Belle Vue" the other day in the Salford history library on the Crescent and I expect they also sell it in the little shop on Picadilly Station Approach which has a load of those thin, A4 sized, local history titles. I bought the one called "Cheetham Hill and Broughton in Regency and Victorian Times" which has a bit about the Zoo in Broughton. I'll see if there is anything useful to add from there and maybe do a seperate article about it although it would probably only be a stub. Funnily enough the house there was called "Bella Vista"! I used to go to Saturday night dances in the Elizabethan Hall too. We would bop about in one room in our "trendy gear" and then go and laugh at the ballroom dancers looking all serious in the next room. And of course Jimmy Saville began his DJ career at the Top Ten Club there. Richerman (talk) 16:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
In that case I shall certainly add the flea circus in. This PDF is proving rather useful now seeing how the info is all over the place, whilst searching for "flea" for the above quote, I found on another page the reason the flea circus shut down. Apparently it was because fleas were starting to become increasingly more difficult to obtain. Sort of like plumber I suppose!
Yes you're right about not putting the whole book in, it's so tempting :)
The only thing I can remember about the place when I was a kid is standing behind that large plate glass window waiting for the splash from the water chute. As I worked at Belle Vue Ambulance Station in the 80s I had to pass the main entrance (or at least where it was) so still have relatively recent memories about the buildings there.
As an aside, whilst starting the research for this I was amazed to discover that there was a rather large prison, called Belle Vue Prison on Hyde Road in West Gorton, it was knocked down as unsafe in 1890. Jennison, being a pack rat, used a load of the jail's building blocks to construct the rhino enclosure. I suppose that little factoid should go in too :) --WebHamster 19:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Hey guess what? googled "flea circus" and found a few references including a wikipedia article, so it looks like there's an opportunity to do a two way link there as they only list a couple of famous flea circus's. My main memory of Belle Vue as a kid is the water chute as well. I used to try and keep my eyes open when the water hit the glass but could never do it! Richerman (talk) 22:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Well it's a definite inclusion then :) Not only that, I've found a pic of the front of the place. It's needs some cleanup in Photoshop, so when I've finished it I'll upload it and add it to the article.--WebHamster 23:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Looks like a well-written, well-reserached article. Well done. There seems to be some differences between your account of Belle Vue Speedway/Greyhound racing and the account given at Belle Vue (greyhound racing). Can you throw any light on that? I would tend to go with your article, because I think the other is s copy/precis of a poorly researched piece available on the net. But I do understand that the Belle Vue track, operated by the Greyhound Racing Association opened in 1926 - (was there more than one?). Gentle was apparently one of the founders. Grateful for any additional sourced info you can offer. hjuk (talk) 13:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

To be honest I haven't really done much research on that section, but I do know from my own local knowledge that the speedway stadium and greyhound track were separate. The Belle Vue Speedway stadium was on the grounds of Belle Vue down at the bottom of Kirkmanshulme Lane near Redgate Lane, whereas the greyhound track as it stands now is at the top end of Kirkmanshulme Lane. I've only had a brief read through of the relevant sections in the books so I'm not 100% sure of what, where and how things were at the very beginning.
Here's a relevant section:

In the early 1920s an American, Charles Munn, enlisted the support of Major L Lyne Dixon, a noted coursing judge, in establishing greyhound racing in this country. Brigadier General A C Critchley and Sir William Gentle were approached over the raising of finance and in August 1925 the 'Greyhound Racing Association was formed.

 

It is not known whether Gentle's interest in Belle Vue arose from any plans he had for the Gardens in this connection, but on 14th October the Association took a seven-year lease on land at the northern end of Kirkmanshulme Lane (the old brickfield, bought in 1872), at an annual rent of £276.

 

The choice of the North West to stage the British premiere of the sport was deliberate: it was hoped that the area's coursing tradition would aid the new form of entertainment. With a capital of £22,000, of which £8,000 was borrowed, a stadium was built on the land. and on 27th July 1926 a whitecoated bugler, a striking miner from Newton Heath named Johnny Jones. opened the first meeting. Six races were run, with eight dogs in each. all of which were bought by the Association as the expected support from the area's coursing connections did not materialise. The attendance at the first meeting was disappointing; only a tenth of the estimated audience of 20,000 turned up, followed by 1,600 at the next meeting. The third attracted 4,000 and by the end of the first season in October, thirty seven meetings had been held, with an average attendance of 11,000. The Greyhound Stadium and Belle Vue developed in partnership until Sir William Gentle became the first Chairman of the Greyhound Racing Association. He relinquished his seat on the Board of Belle Vue in 1928, and when he died in 1948 he was said to have been a rich man, although he never owned a greyhound and had never placed a single bet.

– "The Belle Vue Story" by Robert Nicholls (page 31)

So it sounds like the current location is the original site and may have been a temporary venue for the speedway right at the very beginning until the speedway stadium was built. I'll see what else I can find out. --WebHamster 13:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Most helpful. Thank you so much for your trouble. Might it be possible for me to ask you for the Nicholls book ISBN, publisher & pub date? hjuk (talk) 21:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You'll find them in the article's Bibliography section just above the references, the publisher is Neil Richardson Richerman (talk) 22:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Guardian Article

I came across an article in the Guardian Archives from April 1st, 1926, searching under William Gentle. It is a report of an early shareholders meeting. It answers my question above. I thought it may be of interest to editors of this article. You can get a 24hr free pass to the sie by entering, if I remember rightly, "ARCHIVRFREE" in the appropriate space - if the code's wrong, you can find it by searching on Google. hjuk (talk) 12:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)