Talk:Believer's baptism

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Contents 1 Archived debate 2 Requested move 2.1 Survey and discussion 3 New section 4 many Protestant churches => a number of Protestant churches, see talk page 5 Age of accountability 6 Support for other "modes" 7 Theological Objections 8 article title 9 Original Sin 10 'Good Conscience Toward God' 11 Include LDS here? 12 Theological Objections 13 Arguments for Credobaptism: Premise #5 14 In Holiness 15 Number of Adherents 16 Prevalence 17 Which Apostolics?

[edit] Archived debate

[edit] New section

"i feel that belivers baptism is someones choice " people should not be pushed into anything they dont wanna do! anyone agree?!?!?!?

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In response to Wesley's concern of "resurrected by God". Was it not the Niacine Creed that determined the nature of God (The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are ONE BEING), mans own interpretation? If we were to use logic, our own interpretation, God and Jesus, the Father and the Son, are two separate beings. To read it any other way is simply relying on the interpretation of Man. James 1:37 says: "If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God". Certainly if we really wanted to know the nature of God, we could ask him through prayer, and find out for ourselves. --Eric

Are you suggesting that the bishops at the First Nicene Council didn't pray and ask God? Or that if I were to pray and ask God, and receive a different answer, that that would somehow NOT be my interpretation? The doctrine of the Trinity is not only consistent with what Jesus Christ and the first apostles taught, it is what countless Christians have also confirmed by their experience in prayer, both corporately and separately. To depart from this tradition would be to elevate myself higher than the apostles and saints and presume that God had spoken more clearly to me, and that all the church for the last 2000 years has been in error. That somehow seems a bit arrogant. Also, individuals running around, praying individually and arriving at their own interpretations has led to tremendous fragmentation in the church, to the tune of tens of thousands of protestant denominations all claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit. But now I've strayed rather far from the topic of improving the Believers Baptism article. Sorry Larry! --Wesley

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I think there is some confusion this page between Age of Accountability and age of consent. Many children have reached the age where they realize the serious nature of christian belief, and thus are accountable for their actions, but are still a part of their family. Age of consent usually is associated with matters other than baptism, but when consent is a part of baptism, it is very common that the consent of the parents is required for baptism as well as the desire and understanding of the child.

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I agree with Ben, this point is definitely confused in this article. The article for Baptist seems to have it right. Could we just copy the relevant paragraph over here?

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i agree with the both of you. jesus and god are two separte things. however the christian faith believe that the holy tinity are all one thing user nay

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This is tangential to the point of the article, but when you say that Jesus was "resurrected by God", you're implying that Jesus was not himself God, but was as much in need of being resurrected as was Lazarus, for example. Is that what you really mean to say? --Wesley

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That may be your interpretation of the phrase, but the implication is only there in your understanding. The phrase 'resurrected by God' is a rephrasing of a direct quote from the Bible:

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

1Cor 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

1Pet 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God

Hmm, that does look like a direct rephrasing. It just struck me funny in the other context somehow. --Wesley

[edit] many Protestant churches => a number of Protestant churches, see talk page

I have changed "and many Protestant churches baptize infant children of believers" to "and a number of Protestant churches baptize infant children of believers" When we look at the Protestants, we find that quite a big number of them practice Believers Baptism. The rise of Pentecostal churches within the last decades has changed the statistics. By now the majority of Protestants were baptized as believers. This might not be the case in Europe, but especially in the developing countries. Stating that "many" Protestant churces practise infant baptism suggests that those who practise Believers baptism are a minority. That would be a very Europe-centered view, and suggests something that is no longer the case. Heiko Evermann 21:16, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Age of accountability

Believer's Baptism can only be administered to someone over the age of accountability or reason, which is usually 8-12, depending on the individual church, and sometimes on the individual themselves.

Is it true that there are actually churches which set a specific age for this? In my experience almost everyone would say that depends on the individual. Jdavidb 20:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

As far as I am aware setting an age is not so common as to be held by any entire denomination. If someone can name a specific group that holds this... otherwise, it is probably too specific in its application to really belong in this article. An article on the concept of age of accountability might be another matter. Jonadab, 2006 Sep 02

Some also hold that individuals are not held eternally accountable by God for their sins until they reach a state of moral and rational accountability.

I altered the wording to some. Formerly it seemed to imply all, which is plainly wrong. At least three fellowships of the Schwarzenau Brethren, if not all of them, do not hold this doctrine (although a few individual Pastors within the fellowships might teach it), and I have my doubts about its universality among other Anabaptist groups.

I also marked the statement as needing a citation, not because I think a citation is needed to the effect that such a doctrine exists at all, but because I think the association between the doctrine of Age of Accountability and that of Believer's Baptism needs to be more firmly established if the statement is to remain in this article. A statement as to which particular groups hold both doctrines would be a good start toward that. I have always thought of Age of Accountability as largely a Protestant doctrine and Believer's Baptism as primarily an Anabaptist one (although a handful of Protestant groups have adopted it, notably the Baptists), so if there is a connection between the two doctrines it ought to be better documented. Otherwise the sentence about age of accountability does not belong in this article. -- Jonadab, 2006 Sep 02

[edit] Support for other "modes"

The article contains the sentence "Yet all three modes have Scriptural support." I fail to see how that is not POV. Some churches believe the Scripture teaches only immersion; other churches believe the Scripture teaches the possibility of using any of these methods. In this sentence the article takes a side in the debate, which is not appropriate. Moreover, it directly contradicts or minimizes the previous sentence which talks about those churches that "prefer" immersion. In fact, the very word "prefer" in that sentence is a misrepresentation, since to those who believe only in immersion, it is not at all a matter of "preference."

Finally, the sentence says "all three modes," but there has clearly been some editing, because there are only two modes mentioned up to that point. Jdavidb 04:27, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with your critique, though I also agree with the fact that all 3 modes are Scriptural. Go ahead and make an edit! KHM03 10:44, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

What are some Bible verses that support baptism other than by immersion? El Cubano 00:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, that would be an interesting argument to see. I was under the impression that most groups practicing non-immersion simply considered the distinction unimportant, arguing that it is the act that matters and not the details of the method; I was not aware that anyone (especially anyone who disagrees with infant christening and holds to baptism only of believers) actually argued that βαπτιζω refers to a method other than dipping. I would have considered that a straw man. --Jonadab

This article in Wikipedia is mainly concerned with the subject of baptism, rather than the mode of baptism. Mode would be best treated in a separate article. In theory at least, it might be possible to practice believer's baptism, yet stick to the mode of sprinkling rather than immersion. There are some groups like this. DFH 15:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theological Objections

I would like to see some more in depth discussion in this area of theological objections. It seems to me to be very slanted to the objectors and no scriptural support is given to the objections.

The first objection seems to be contradictory to the necessity of baptism at all and is somewhat fatalistic. Knowing that this must be someone's objection, I think it should be stated perhaps more intellectually. It also presupposes that baptism is essential for salvation which is not a prevalent view in the baptist and anabaptist community. The same things hold true for the second objection. This also shows a presupposition that baptism is essential for salvation.

The third objection needs clarification. In the New Testament there are many evidences of family members who were not saved while others were. Timothy is a good example in that his mother was "saved" yet there is no mention of his father having the same relationship with God through Christ. James, the "half-brother" of Jesus is another example. I would like some clarification on how this third position treats those "baptised" family members who turn away from their faith and then potentially turn back.

The fourth Objection is very problematic since the act of baptism is looked at through the prism of a work and not a response to God's grace. I would contend that the majority of those who practice believer's baptism do not view it as a work, but rather as an act of obedience. I guess my problem is in the term "usually". Markepp 07:12, 22 November 2005 (UTC) Mark

I think all these points could be easily balanced by addressing the adherents' reasoning in the main body, which were pretty thinly represented here. I've tried to do that by adding some theological reasoning that goes beyond the mere mechanics. Others please help. 128.158.14.42, 04 Aug 2006

[edit] article title

Shouldn't the title of this artice be Believer's Baptism? --Amazon10x 19:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I have made some changes to make the whole of "believer's baptism" stand out a little better as well as to acknowledge the fundamental differences maintained by the churches of Christ who are not denominational, Roman Catholic or Protestant. I changed the word "pastor" to "minister" under the picture as "pastor" has a biblical meaning (generally elder) for which there are biblical qualifications. Many if not most of todays "pastors" are not able to qualify to so call themselves "pastors." Sky 15:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original Sin

The article states: "Believer's baptism is more prevalent in Christian traditions which maintain that there is a state of innocency from birth to the age of accountability (if the believer, due to mental or emotional disability, is not likely to gain the ability to judge the morality of his or her actions, this state of innocency persists for life). Credobaptism is less prevalent in traditions which maintain that the corruption of original sin is present at birth and is sufficient guilt in the eyes of God to cause the child to be damned, should it die before baptism." This statement assumes that a belief in "original sin" means a belief that an unbaptised person is damned, and that baptism is considered necessary for salvation - but while some on each side believe this, some certainly don't. Many people (myself included) who believe in believers' baptism (not as a necessity for salvation) also believe in original sin. In fact, as far as I was aware, most do. Of course, this creates problems. If everyone is born a sinner, but can only be saved by believing in Jesus, what about those who are too young to do so? Many would say, "we don't know, but God will do what is right," with the assumption that sending babies to hell would not come under the heading of "right"! Anyway, don't catholics, who certainly believe in baptism for salvation, believe that unbaptised babies go to limbo, instead of being "damned"? Not sure how to edit this, but I have added in limbo. KMcA 20:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Good Conscience Toward God'

I would suggest adding the following verse:

"... Baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." --I Peter 3:21.

Also, I fixed a few punctuation errors, incuding a missing parentheses ")" at the end on " (See Independent Christian Churches."

--Creton4 207.43.79.22 19:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and the older translations phrase this as the "interrogation of a good conscience". DFH 15:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Include LDS here?

As I understand it, LDS also believe in baptism only after age of accountability. (WP:OR - I am not myself an LDS but I have family who converted.) Should they be included here, or alternatively, if they don't fall under the category, should some explanation be given? I have no stake in the matter, just raising the question. --Davecampbell 19:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theological Objections

Did anyone else not have a clue what this guy is talking about?

"One standard theological argument leveled against believer's baptism is that it makes the efficacy of the sacrament dependent upon the understanding of the baptisand; that is, it depends upon what the baptisand knows. This runs counter to the Calvinistic belief that God saves whomever he wills, regardless of any worthiness or knowledge on the part of the saved. It also runs contrary to the concept of free will and the notion of choice."

Sounds messed up to me. Totally wrong.

In my experience, the one to be baptized in a believer's baptism because he then knows Christ. Doing so does not actually save him; it merely goes in accordance with the scripture somewhere in the bible that says go and be baptized, once you are saved. It symbolizes your relation with Christ. During the time period that the Romans ruled Judea, being baptized was merely showing your strong commitment to anything, Jesus used it to symbolize a strong commitment to him.

And for the last sentence I quoted: God DOES save whoever he wants, which is everyone, but only if they accept him.

Just my little kick at it.

The Editor 2 22:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The sentence I have added that begins "Reformed Baptist theologians ...." is based on my reading of the book by Fred Malone. DFH 15:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arguments for Credobaptism: Premise #5

Premise #5 states:

"Whole household" baptism interpretations do not consider the context that many households were multi-family in the 1st century.[1]

What point is being made here? This premise neither advances an argument for credobaptism nor refutes arguments for paedobaptism. Why should "multi-family" baptism be thought to exclude paedobaptism or to suggest credobaptism?

[edit] In Holiness

"In Holiness, many Baptist, and some other churches..." Is Holiness a denomination? If so, fine, I've just never heard of it, if not, what does this phrase mean?--Thelonghop 23:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number of Adherents

I question the 80% paedobaptist/20% credobaptist figure. Pentecostals are nearly always credobaptists, and some figures I've read have estimated the number of Pentecostals at over 400 million. Most credobaptists belong to independent congregations, so getting an accurate number is difficult. There is also the problem that churches only count baptized members as adherents - this means that paedobaptist churches count their children, but credobaptists do not. This puts the number of Baptists, for example, around 40 million worldwide. But when you count Baptist children, you get a number above 100 million. If the same ratio holds true for Pentecostals and various evangelical denominations and non-denominational churches, there are nearly a billion people associated with credobaptist churches, making the ratio of credobaptists to paedobaptists something like 45% to 55%.--ManicBrit 00:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prevalence

I moved the paragraph about the prevalence of the practice to a lower spot in the article, and gave it its own heading. I did this to improve the article's readability. The original sentence was added by an Eastern Catholic who has openly stated his hostility to non-Catholic traditions, and was placed high in the article as an apparent attempt to disparage those who practice believer's baptism. Later revisions made the paragraph choppy, and started the article with a discussion of the practice's prevalence and the way church membership statistics are calculated rather than a discussion of the practice and its theology. Therefore, I tightened up the word and moved it to its new location. --ManicBrit (talk) 12:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Which Apostolics?

...other groups such as Apostolics do hold baptism to have salvation value.

The name Apostolic is used by several groups. One European group practises infant baptism. The Pentecostal church of this name that came out of the Welsh Revival practises believer's baptism, but does not consider it necessary to salvation. The term "Apostolics" here was linked (via a redirect) to an article on the Apostolic Brethren, a 12th or 13th century sect—unlikely to be the one that the editor was thinking of. Copey 2 (talk) 14:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)