Talk:Bede

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good article Bede has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
June 26, 2006 Good article nominee Listed
This article includes content derived from the Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, 1914, which is in the public domain.
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Contents

[edit] Pliny?

From the 1911 text:

He was not proficient in patristic literature, and quotes from Puny the Younger, ...

Um, shouldn't this be Pliny the Younger? I won't change it yet as I don't have access to my books. --ClaudineChionh

Forgive the very late reply, but Bede cites Pliny the Elder's Natural History; I've just changed it. --SteveMcCluskey 02:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The article says he moved to Jarrow in 682. He must have been ten years old then. The previous passage suggests he stayed in Wearmouth until he was 30 ???

Kpjas 23:39, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Pliny the Younger was much earlier, in the first century. Sometime in 112, Pliny the Younger was sent by Roman Emperor Trajan to reorganize Roman affairs in Bithyniia. his_writer —Preceding unsigned comment added by His writer (talk • contribs) 04:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV?

This section troubles me:

"Beder practiced the allegorical method of interpretation, and was by modern standards credulous concerning the miraculous; but in most things his good sense is conspicuous, and his kindly and broad sympathies, his love of truth and fairness, his unfeigned piety, and his devotion to the service of others combine to make him an exceedingly attractive character."

It seems to be implying that those who believe in miracles are typically lacking in good sense. I also think that declaring him an "exceedingly attractive character" is almost certainly POV. I'm hesitant to edit this page, since the reason I came across was that I didn't know who Bede was in the first place. I'll leave this notice here for a while before I attempt to make any changes.--Wclark 22:12, 2004 Jul 10 (UTC)

I certainly don't believe in miracles, but I agree that this is patronising. I'm also more dubious about Bede's love of truth etc.--alarichall 09.40, 2006 June 6
I agree that the passage is overly flowery and tends to be somewhat POV, but it is taken from the [Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge http://www.ccel.org/php/disp.php?authorID=schaff&bookID=encyc02&page=23&view=]. Bede's use of allegorical interpretation in his scriptural commentaries can be verified from the literature and and his concern for evidence in his historical writings is mentioned more specifically in the section on the Historia Ecclesiastica. I'll get around to pruning the flowers shortly. --SteveMcCluskey 01:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Just to add my two cents, Steve, I'd suggest that everything after "miraculous" in the quote is POV and ought to be removed. Carl.bunderson 01:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
"Modern standards" are far from unanimous regarding the miraculous. The entire passage is full of opinion, rather than fact. It is non-neutral POV. 68.46.96.38 05:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
As promised long ago, I've finally got around to pruning this passage and adding sources. --SteveMcCluskey 18:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Having removed the controversial material, I'll also remove the template. SteveMcCluskey 18:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Date of death

I noticed that the date of death was changed back to May 25 after I corrected it. He died the day before Ascension, which was on May 26 that year, and it was notied very early that his feast, on the day of his death, was in conflict with that of St Augstine of Canterbury (which is now May 27 in the Roman calendar, but still May 26 in England). May 25 didn't enter the picture until the calendar reform in 1969. Cnyborg 23:47, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Date of death

If Ascension Day 735 was May 26th and Bede died the day before, then he died on May 25th. I don't understand your reasoning here. In the course of revising this page I've put the date back to the 25th, but obviously I'm happy to see it corrected if there's a clear and good reason. alarichall 09:57, 6 June 2006

There's some kind of typo there, and while I'm sure it all made sense to me at the time, I can't remember it all now. I checked the date at http://www.albion.edu/english/calendar/easter.htm, and Ascension 735 was on 26 May, so he died in the evening on 25 May. As it is now, there are two different dates given in the article, 25 and 27 May, and the former seems to be the correct one. Cnyborg 09:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BBC Radio 4 Programme

Melvin Bragg's "In our Time" Programme featured Bede on November 25 2004, I hope link follows Venerable Bede Audio Broadcast Link

Added information about Bede's Death Song. The poem is itself interesting and perhaps deserves a separate entry? On the other hand, Cædmon and Cædmon's Hymn (a more important poem) share an entry.

[edit] Patron Saint

What is St. Bede the patron saint of? I think teachers and students.

[edit] Patron saint

St. Bede was the patron saint of Scholars and Historians. His records of the dark ages have proven vital to many modern archeologists, and so this was felt to be the most fitting title. WASTREL 20:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes

Regarding the text:

'After 596, documentary sources, which Bede took pains to obtain, are used, as well as oral testimony, which he employed with critical consideration of its value. He cited his references and was very concerned about the sources of all his sources, which created an important historical chain. He is credited with inventing footnoting. Due to his innovations like footnoting he was accused of heresy at the table of Bishop Wilfred, although the actual accusation was for miscalculating the age of the world, his chronology being contrary to the calculation of the time. The controversy is linked to footnoting because Bede cited another source in a note, rather than opining himself; others misunderstood the significance of citing another source.'

I don't know where this footnoting stuff is coming from. I'm pretty certain that he uses no footnotes--it looks like someone has got confused by Bede's famous habit of (selectively) saying in the body of his text where he got his information from. I've never heard of this relating to his accusation of heresy either. alarichall 09:46, 6 June 2006

I have the same problem with the claim of his use of footnotes. This needs a source or should be removed.
On another, related, matter, I've done some major revisions using footnotes -- when I found the literary section uses inline references. I'll straighten out my stylistic inconsistency soon; bear with me. --SteveMcCluskey 01:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latin and Old English Text?

The guide to writing better Wikipedia articles recommends against use of foreign text in Wikipedia. It's appropriate for an academic article, but not for an encyclopedia (except, perhaps the Brittanica Eleventh edition).

I think the passage about Bede's Death Song could be inproved by cutting out the Latin and Old English text and leaving the translation stand by itself. This is especially the case since it presently takes up such a large part of the article, and is such a small part of Bede's literary output (if, in fact, he actually wrote it). --SteveMcCluskey 02:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second Thoughts

I see the value of the Old English text of the poem to the argument, the Latin seems superfluous. I rearranged the poem in two columns using the table format. --SteveMcCluskey 21:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latin pronunciation

The first line of the entry at the moment reads 'Bede (IPA: /biːd/), also Saint Bede, the Venerable Bede, or (from Latin) Beda (IPA: /biːdə/)'. The IPA transcription of the Latin is right if you pronounce Latin with an English accent, but not otherwise! I think in Ciceronian, ecclesiastical Latin and Anglo-Saxon Latin pronunciations, it would have been /beːdɑ/. I'm inclined to change it, but obviously there are a lot of ways to pronounce Latin, which makes me wonder if we should include a Latin pronunciation at all? Since there's evidently quite a lot of activity on this page at the moment, I thought I'd ask what people think. alarichall 14:52, 28th June 2006.

The Latin IPA has now been corrected, by User:Daniel.odonnell, as you'll see. He finds no evidence for the length of the first vowel. Indeed, I feel doubts whether the vowel length distinction of classical Latin was made in Northumbria in Bede's time!
I rather agree with you that for dead languages such as Latin an IPA transcription is hardly wanted in Wikipedia. It is, actually, an unverifiable opinion, isn't it? And much more difficult cases than this one will arise if we try to determine how medieval people pronounced their names in Latin. Andrew Dalby 12:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Image of Bede

I removed the image of Bede "from a medieval manuscript" after discussing the image on Ansax-l with professional Anglo-Saxonists and Art Historians (June 29 and 30th, 2006). Although the image shows up all over the Internet as an unattributed image of Bede, this attribution is almost certainly wrong. It is probably Gregory the Great (the bird in the ear), or barring that St. Jerome (the context). It is found in Corpus Christi College Cambridge MS. 389 and described by Budny and James. dpod 16:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice identification Dan; I know I shouldn't have dropped out of ANSAX-L.
Now we're stuck with two awful pictures which have no historical authenticity, one from the fifteenth century which is downright ugly and the other a romantic piece from the late 19th / early 20th c.
Does anyone know of a better image of Bede? --SteveMcCluskey 18:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
His tomb in Durham Cathedral isn't particularly unsightly; would a photograph of that (if we can find one) work? It's not a picture of him, but it can't be condemned for inaccuracy if it's not depicting him... Shimgray | talk | 19:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I've just removed the unattributed image of Bede again. I've added a note to the image description noting its doubtful authenticity. SteveMcCluskey 02:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just stuck it on gregory's article - does anyone know the date? Johnbod 21:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "remaining a priest for the rest of his life"

he became deacon in his nineteenth year, and priest in his thirtieth, remaining a priest for the rest of his life.

Isn't that generally what you'd expect, and so not really worth mentioning? I mean, people don't usually stop being priests once they've started, except if they get defrocked or something. (Unless it's supposed to mean that he didn't become a bishop, but bishops don't stop being priests.) The Wednesday Island 03:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English or Briton?

Forgive me, but the article states that Bede was an "Englishman (and only the second Briton...)."

Surely if he was an Englishman and by inference an Anglo Saxon, then he couldn't be a native Briton. He can't be both! Sabaco 07:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Ofcourse you can, being English doesn't mean you are Anglo-Saxon. Gazh 13:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

"Being English doesn't mean you are Anglo-Saxon"- surely that's exactly what it means at this period? There's no such thing as 'England' in the eighth century, 'English' is an ethnic identification, which Bede always uses in opposition to 'Briton', meaning the native inhabitants of the island. Calling Bede a Briton is extremely misleading and anachronistic. 131.111.195.8 (talk) 22:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Which Cuthbert?

A line refers to Bede's study of the life of St. Cuthbert, deceased during Bede's lifetime. The very next sentence apparently refers to a follower of Bede's, also named Cuthbert. This is confusing since the follower was not previously introduced. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.241.139.178 (talk • contribs) 03:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I checked out Cuthbert in the Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England.
The first Cuthbert is llisted as a Saint; bishop of Hexham, 684-685, and Lindisfarne, 685-687.
The second Cuthbert, is only described as Cuthbert of Wearmouth, author of the Death of Bede. The further reference to the text lists the author as Cuthbert, abbot of Wearmouth and Jarrow. No references for the claim that he was abbot appear in the prosopography, itself.
--SteveMcCluskey 23:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A.D. dating

Wasn't he one of the early influential popularizers of A.D. dating? AnonMoos 19:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

He was indeed, it's mentioned in the scientific writings section. The most common dating system in his time, so I read in Peter Hunter Blair's The World of Bede, was from the Passion rather than from the Incarnation. He may have originated BC dates; he dates something to "sixty years before the birth of our Lord" in the Ecclesiastical History.Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, but the adoption of Dionysius Exiguus's pre-existing incarnation date as a chronological era should be clearly distinguished from calculating a new date for the creation of the world. These two things are very distinct, but currently they're combined into one potentially confusing sentence... AnonMoos 23:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
You're right. He did not use AD-BC in his scientific writings, so I'm removing it from that section. Their use in Historia Ecclesiastica was very influential, so I'm adding it there. — Joe Kress 20:37, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 22:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandal vacation

Good news: the persistent vandal with IP 24.107.222.84 has been blocked from Wiki for a week. Let's hope that he'll leave us alone on his return. -- Zimriel 21:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of epithet "the Venerable": mistranslation?

There is a contention in the article that Bede's "title is believed to come from a mistranslation of the Latin inscription on his tomb in Durham Cathedral, intended to be Here lie the venerable bones of Bede, but wrongly interpreted as here lie the bones of the Venerable Bede".

What is the origin of this theory? Quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The title Venerabilis seems to have been associated with the name of Bede within two generations after his death. There is of course no early authority for the legend repeated by Fuller of the "dunce-monk" who in composing an epitaph on Bede was at a loss to complete the line: Hac sunt in fossa Bedae . . . . ossa and who next morning found that the angels had filled the gap with the word venerabilis. The title is used by Alcuin, Amalarius and seemingly Paul the Deacon, and the important Council of Aachen in 835 describes him as venerabilis et modernis temporibus doctor admirabilis Beda."

This sounds more convincing, especially so since the prosody in Hac sunt in fossa Bedae venerabilis ossa requires venerabilis, which can only be connected to Bede, not to his bones. Iblardi 21:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] "Bede's Digital Computation"

I read of this in a book about Pope Joan. It was referenced as a method of doing complex mathematical calculations using the fingers. Do you know of any other references to this?

Although I wouldn't take a book on Pope Joan as a serious historical source :), the author could be referring to the first chapter of On the Reckoning of Time / De temporum ratione; which in the manuscript era could have circulated separately. Of course it could also be one of the many other books falsely attributed to Bede. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 03:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "County Durham?"

I'm having trouble understanding the opening paragraph, and what is to be done to correct it:

"...Monkwearmouth, today part of Sunderland, and of its companion monastery, Saint Paul's, in modern Jarrow (see Wearmouth-Jarrow), both in the English county of Durham (now Tyne and Wear)."

Being local, I am aware that Monkwearmouth and Jarrow are now in Tyne and Wear. However, the sentence seems to imply that County Durham is now called Tyne and Wear which is certainly not the case; both counties still exist (and the links are to the modern day counties). In Bede's time was Durham actually a county, was it part of Northumbria, or what? Knthrak1982 (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

County Durham wasn't even thought of in Bedes time. --JarraJim (talk) 14:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)