Talk:Bear Grylls

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[edit] Original name

Please be aware that a New York Times article was released today that used a vandalized version of this Wikipedia page as its source for Bear's original name. The vandalized version said that his name was "Mitchell Winston Grylls". There were only 3 pages on the internet that used that name: Wikipedia and 2 others quoting Wikipedia...and now a fourth in this NYT article. However, everywhere else on the internet you'll find that his name was originally Edward Michael Grylls. Furthermore, if you go to the "Ask Bear" section of Bear Grylls' official website, you'll find that he states that his nickname comes from being christened Eddie, then getting called Teddy, then getting called Bear because of the two transitions in name. Do not falsely use the NYT article as a source for his name and be aware if this vandalism becomes persistent. Thanks. ju66l3r (talk) 16:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I have sent an email to the NYT, hopefull they will correct it, and/or advise their journo's of the perils of using wikipedia as a source. MickMacNee (talk) 17:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Good. I called their "reader comment/correction" phone answering machine and sent an e-mail directly to the author of the article. I know it's just the TV columnist, but they need better sense. ju66l3r (talk) 18:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Did he name himself after Edward Bear, aka Winnie the Pooh? Serendipodous 20:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

No, according to his website, linked above, he was named Edward by his parents. In grade school, he was nicknamed Eddie. That later became Teddy. Friends started calling him "Bear" because of being nicknamed Teddy and he changed his name to Bear Grylls because it just stuck for so long. ju66l3r (talk) 05:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sons' Names

There is no BLP violation by giving his sons' names. Bear specifically takes pride in both of his sons within his biography. Furthermore, one editor considers his sons' names to be BLP violations, yet leaves his wife's name? She is no more notable than her sons with regards to an article on Bear Grylls (nor are most other family of notable individuals), yet we don't just put "Spouse = Yes, Kids = Yes" because these people have names and barring a need to keep those names private, there's no harm in listing them. There's no need to keep the two sons' names private here and there's no shame in having them listed. Bear, himself, chooses to make their names public on his own website and that should satisfy any question of whether they are preferred private or not. Please leave the names in the article. Any other opinions for decision making? ju66l3r (talk) 02:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that their names were added as far back as at least July 2007 and an admin at the time even acknowledged their addition (see earlier talk page section on "Wife and children"). ju66l3r (talk) 02:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I don;t agree that just because they are printed in his biography that they are notable, this article is not a reprint of his biography, or a vanity page for Bear to show pride in his kids. Additionaly, the presence of his sons names recently attracted some nonsense additions. The onus is on you to give a reason why they should be included in the article. The above discussion gives no admin endorsement of thi addition, not that one admins input is completely overriding, as being an admin is WP:nobigthing. MickMacNee (talk) 02:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't say they were notable. If they were, they'd have their own articles. I said listing their names is not a privacy issue because he chooses to make them well known to anyone interested. Vandalism is not a justification for removal of content, it's a justification for removal of vandalism. Also, you don't address why the spouse's name is somehow less inherently a BLP violation than the rest of his immediate family's names. The reason for inclusion is, as I said previously, the same reason the template doesn't just say "Spouse = Yes, Kids = Yes": it is valid public knowledge that Bear has a family and what their names are. Since there is no harm in listing their names and even Bear chooses to do so publicly, their names are within common public knowledge and that is part of what this project is about. BLP exists to prevent harm and there is no harm prevented by de-listing their names. Also, I did not claim admin endorsement, only that at the time someone who's "nobigthing" role here is to enforce the rules did not act to enforce BLP by removing or even suggesting the withdrawal of the names when they were requested to be added during an earlier protection of this article. ju66l3r (talk) 18:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm still not seeing any persuasive argument to list their names, and it doesn't look to be a standard practice in any other BLP article (I randomly looked through cat:tv presenters). Wwikipedia is not a mirror of all public information, self-published or not, and I see no purpose in having them here, nor do I see what harm it does to the article by not having them there, which is the ultimate information standard for any information added to any article. This is looking more and more like an assertion to keep based on some fancruft vanity based reason. MickMacNee (talk) 19:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
You are seriously off base to make that final comment. I neither added the names originally (I only sought to not have them lost amid a round of vandalism, so it's not vanity) nor am I a fan of Bear Grylls (in fact, I don't like his show preferring Stroud's Survivorman). I have nothing more to add until there is more discussion than only your opinion on this matter. ju66l3r (talk) 19:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Both of you need to stop edit-warring over this, simply placing an argument here doesn't justify another revert Mick, you've already pretty much broken the WP:3RR revert rule. Reach a consensus between you before changing it again--Jac16888 (talk) 03:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

As long as the citations back up the information, I'd say include it. It's not really an irrelevant part of his bio. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 20:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Turn that comment on its head, what possible relevance are they? As far as I know they are school age, so they are unlikely to have achieved anything of note yet just for being 'sons of Bear'. Also, see above for an example of what can happen when things like this in an article are vandalised, and not picked up on. BLP comes into play there, because there is a serious risk of a BLP violation (i.e. having them vandalised and then mis-reported) by insisting on their inclusion and exposing this risk, when there is clearly no good reason to include them in the first place. Seriously, who actually comes to this article and would be dissappointed that his son's names are not here? (especially as pointed out above they are freely available on his own bio, which is under his control and not subject the risk of constant vandalism) - (check the history, this article gets a lot of vandalism). I am having a serious problem seeing why they need to be here (and 'they were here before' is no argument on wikipedia). MickMacNee (talk) 23:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Comment

A user has requested comment on biography for this section.
This tag will automatically place the page on the {{RFCbio list}}.
When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list.

This is to find more input from the community regarding the disputed inclusion of Bear Grylls' sons' names in the article. Discussion had been limited to two people and a third opinion was sought, but more input would always be preferred.

  • The first thing I would say is that the involved editors should take a break and allow the RFC comments to come in. I think we can all tell what each of you think without any further remarks. This is an extraordinarily small point to be having such a big argument over. I think this is relevant to this discussion. The sons are not notable on their own, but nobody is suggesting they have their own articles. It is normal in a bio article to mention if someone has children. However, WP:BLP1E seems to suggest that if no real encyclopedic value is added by the addition of the names, they should be left out: "Editors should take particular care when considering whether inclusion of the names of private, living individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value. The presumption in favor of the privacy of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved persons without independent notability is correspondingly stronger. In all cases where the redaction of names is considered, editors should be willing to discuss the issue on the article's talk page." So I would say that policy suggests they be left out. I would add, however, that the suggestion that leaving them in exposes Wikipedia to undue legal risk is flimsy at best. Beeblbrox (talk) 22:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Not legal risk, but per the above sections, would you want your son's names printed incorrectly in the New York Times? (I've recieved jack shit reply from them either btw). MickMacNee (talk) 01:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Actually it's the last topic here, I didn't notice someone archived the page. MickMacNee (talk) 01:45, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I find it downright hilarious that such an ironic situation has developed. That is, that something Wikipedians use as a source has in turn used WP as a source and now there is a risk that bad information they used could be cited as a source for a WP article. I know it kind of makes the project look unreliable, but it makes NYT look to lazy to go beyond WP to do their research, so the joke is on them. Beeblbrox (talk) 01:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  • RfC response: Including the name of the subject's child in an article has ample precedence here at Wikipedia. It is perfectly permissible. Escpecially considering that (based on what I've read above) the author has personally published the names of his children, he has no personal desire to hide them (which is one of the key motives behind BLP anyway.) Furthermore, names are common knowledge, and can be accessed at any local courthouse, phone directory, etc... Since this person is not hugely popular, since this is something to consider, the applicable policy is WP:NPF, which states:

Wikipedia also contains biographies of people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, editors should exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability, while omitting information that is irrelevant to the subject's notability. Material from third-party primary sources should not be used unless it has first been published by a reliable secondary source. Material published by the subject must be used with caution. (See Using the subject as a source.) Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care. In the laws of many countries, simply repeating the defamatory claims of another is illegal, and there are special protections for people who are not public figures. Any such potentially damaging information about a private person, if corroborated by multiple, highly reliable sources, may be cited if the Wikipedia article states that the sources make certain "allegations", without the Wikipedia article taking a position on their truth.

Since he has published his children's names, he is not hiding this point. Nothing is said about his children that is damaging to their lives, nor is any information in this article tangential (like the name of the children's best friends, or embarrassing illnesses). It's admissible per policy.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 19:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I apologize for my skepticism but was Bear Grylls really an SAS officer?

As I asked in the archived talk I was under the impression he was not an officer. I read his book The Kid Who Climbed Everest and on page nine it says, and I quote:

The majority of my Army-oriented school friends had joined the Guards or Cavalry, as Commissioned Officers. I felt strangely determined, though, to see military life from a different perspective--from the other end. I had applied to join as a "squaddie," the lowest rank available, so to speak. From here, I was at ground level, the place where the real soldiers were. Nothing smart, nothing fancy, with no rank to seperate us; just good, honest and, at times, wild people. It was the best decision I ever took. I made as good a comrade there as I could have ever imagined. We shared something truly lasting--friendships, born out of being cold and scared together. It was these soldiers I would miss.

Out of the two citations that say he was an officer, one was a blog, and the both of them just say he was an officer. They never say for how long or how he became one. It is certainly plausible that one would assume, given who his father was and his schooling, that he was an officer but I believe he was probably enlisted the whole time (given his age and short term of service). I am not British and have no idea what a "squaddie" is :) but I would appreciate a quote from Bear Grylls himself that he was an SAS officer or something more substantial than a single statement.ChristianLAX (talk) 04:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)ChristianLAX

If you check his website?, there's a bit about his SAS service.
1994-1997
Served with the British SAS (21 SAS). Passed UK Special Forces Selection, serving as a sabre soldier, trained in unarmed combat, desert and winter warfare, combat survival, medics, parachuting, signals, evasive driving, climbing and explosives. Served in North Africa twice. In late 1996 Bear broke his back in a free fall parachuting accident in southern Africa.
If the website is actually written by him or someone close, I would like to believe it's true to some extent. ¢rassic! (talk) 04:35, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
  • A 'squaddie' is the informal name for an enlisted soldier, so if the quote from the book is accurate with the blurb about low ranks, then it would appear he was not an officer, as even though it is possible to rise from squaddie to officer in the British Army, in this timfeframe I severely doubt it, although as per the previous talk, the timeline is feasible if joining as an officer cadet. The sources supporting either are very scarce, so in the case of conflicting sources, the pragmatic thing to do would just reduce it 'to served in the SAS'. Being enlisted is a misnomer anyway, as iirc 'enlisted' only applies to full time soldiers, I don't know what the correct term is for the TA, 'joined' probably. Length of service is also not particularly relevant, as short term postings are available to either enlisted men or officers. The second exerpt is not particularly relevant, as it gives no indication either way, as iirc a 'sabre soldier' can mean either enlisted man or officer. MickMacNee (talk) 10:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Faith

The wikipedia entry for this individual says that Bear is a Christian. While that may be true in a general definition, I believe he more appropriately considers himself a Catholic? He crosses himself every time he jumps out of an aircraft (which is basically every episode of Man vs. Wild.)

It is not uncommon for Americans to state Catholic or Protestant when identifying themselves as a Christian, although I'm unsure if this translates to Britain. Does this merit inclusion, and if so, is simply crossing oneself a declaration of Catholicism? Suitmonster (talk) 22:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Officer" and reliable sources

Already been raised, but this really needs some urgent attention. I have very strong doubts that Bear was a Commissioned Officer - for a number of reasons. Firstly, there are the two quoted references (BBC America, and "Sport Magazine") - whilst I generally trust the BBC as a WP:RS (where the BBC have made mistakes in the past, they are generally quite good at correcting them), I have never heard of Sport Magazine, and so can't vouch for their journalistic, and editorial accuracy. Looking at their website, they are a "free" magazine, being distributed via limited London-centric outlets (all within the M25). They don't seem to have any "peer review" mechanisms either - so I'm struggling to accept they can be a RS. The real crux of my concern, though, regards the complete lack of any evidence of "rank" of Officer. In the UK, it is usually de-facto to state your grade of rank, and all new Commissions and promotions routinely published in the London Gazette - and there is NO notification recorded! When Officers leave the Armed Forces (for whatever reason) they are always referred to by their actual rank on leaving the forces (unless stripped of their rank by a Court Martial).

Discuss . . . -- Teutonic_Tamer (talk to Teutonic_Tamer) 08:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I might be wrong, but as it is the SAS, and not a regular unit, the official practice is to never say anything about the activites of SAS personnel. I find it highly doubtfull the names, let alone ranks, of leaving SAS personnel would be published. Note the lack of any official source in this recent story [1].
As for not having any reference to rank anywhere else, the timeline makes it impossible that he was anything other than a LT, he cannot have made the only other two ranks possible in the SAS, Major or Colonel. I don't see the absolute need for a confirmation of rank here, nor why he would explicitly say it in an interview or whatever, as it can't be realistically anything other than LT. I'm pretty sure you can't hold any instructor position as an enlisted man below the rank of Corporal (possibly even Sergeant), and its equally impossible that he could have made Sergeant, so again, it would seem that stating his rank if he was enlisted would be equally pointless (and I've never seen a source for a specific enlisted rank for Grylls either).
As said previously, the sources are scarce, so if you're looking at it from an RS POV, then all we really can say is that he served in the SAS, period. IIRC I introduced these sources and the medic bit, because even this basic fact was being disputed. It could actually be said there are no reliable sources for his service at all, as they all presumably come from self published sources. MickMacNee (talk) 11:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

"...whilst I generally trust the BBC as a WP:RS"
and it is not even an news article from BBC, which I am sure would be accurate. It is a BBC writer's personal blog on entertainment matters with the following disclaimer: http://www.bbcamerica.com/content/23/about.jsp

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in Anglophenia reflect the personal opinions of Mr. Wicks and do not reflect the views of BBC America.

ChristianLAX (talk) 12:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)ChristianLAX

The way I see it, some big "if" questions surround his rank, and Wikipedia doesn't like conjecture. The safest way to do this is to remove any reference to his rank other than a former SAS solider until it is confirmed. But... conjecture can be fun!

When an American with a university degree enters into the US Army, they automatically sent to OTS to be commissioned as an officer. The exceptions are persons with tenured civilian experience in technical jobs such as doctors, lawyers, etc. What I can find about the structure in Britain seems to say the same thing, but confirmation from a first-hand party would be appreciated. If the same rules apply to Britain's equivalent of Officer Candidacy School, then we need to determine when he received his degree in Hispanic Studies AND if the Territorial Army would have forced him into the British equivalent of OTS because he had it, if indeed he did when he joined.

Then there's the issue of the quoted segment of his book stating specifically that he entered as a "Squaddie", or what would be called an Enlisted man in the States. Again, had Bear enlisted in the US Army and specifically requested NOT to go to OTS (and I'm not entirely sure you can do that) he would have at least been given credit for his college hours and enlisted as E-3 or E-4 Specialist. This means that in 3 years of service, he very likely COULD have become a Sergeant E-5. Again, the example above assumes US Army standards and input from our friends in uniform across the pond would be appreciated. Suitmonster (talk) 14:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As LAX has gone and editted it to reflect one POV only, I've corrected it [2]per the suggestions above, we have no information either way that he was an officer or ranker, both are feasible, both have sources (a self published colloquialism for 'enlisted', versus some unreliable sources for 'officer'), so all we are doing now as descirbed above is speculating. So I believe the current verion is the only undisputed supportable statement, i.e. he served in the TA SAS. MickMacNee (talk) 15:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
And to suitmonster, you can join as either in the TA, and it's not 'enlisting', it's more like signing up for the National Guard. Officers in the British Army are not exclusively degree level (there are allowable exceptions, and the TA process is different again to the regular route, as the TA is part time), and rankers can join with degrees (but you just probably wouldn't, just like you wouldn't go to MIT and then work at McDonalds. It's a personal choice. And again, the TA acceptance and training program is completely seperate from the OTC, the Officer Training Corps, which is associated with universities. MickMacNee (talk) 15:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a few more thoughts...

His book says he joined as a "squaddie" i.e. enlisted. Then, according to his website:

1994-1997
Served with the British SAS (21 SAS). Passed UK Special Forces Selection, serving as a sabre soldier, trained in unarmed combat, desert and winter warfare, combat survival, medics, parachuting, signals, evasive driving, climbing and explosives. Served in North Africa twice. In late 1996 Bear broke his back in a free fall parachuting accident in southern Africa.

So he served healthy for less than three years.
In a reserve unit.
While twice deploying to North Africa.
This page says that selection, by itself, is about six months.
And then there is specialist training which follows (In the US that is like a year long, how long is it in the UK?)...
So, my question is how much time did he have to become an officer? (Also, he said he was a sabre soldier--if he was an officer, wouldn't he have mentioned that? )

Finally, this guy also joined the SAS after Eton and it is widely known that he a) went through Sandhurst and b) was an officer. This page says that "All British Army officers ... are trained at Sandhurst" and the course takes 44 weeks + he would be completing three training modules of the TA Officer Commissioning Process. No one I am aware of has ever said Bear went through Sandhurst, and even if, where was the time necessary to become an officer given all his other training?ChristianLAX (talk) 15:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)ChristianLAX

I thought I had been through this here Talk:Bear_Grylls/archive1#Three_years_as_an_Officer.3F. And "Sabre soldier" does not exclude officers as far as I know, officers are soldiers too (more so in the SAS), and 'sabre' simply means an operational role and not a support role. He hasn't said what rank he was as an enlisted man either - why not? And You cannot be an instructor as a mere private. Eton has nothing to do with it at all. MickMacNee (talk) 15:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)