Talk:Bear (gay slang)

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[edit] Trans inclusive

I don't think there's a huge amount of women in the bear community but there sure is a decent trans presence. I'm a bit overloaded at the moment but it would be nice to find ways to acknowledge this at some point. Benjiboi 01:46, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] talk page clean-up

Resolved. -- ALLSTARecho 18:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

This talk page needs some house-cleaning. Someone please be bold and start an archive and move old talk point to it. Thank you! Benjiboi 01:48, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:NOR

This article contains vast tracts of Original research. The majority of it is unreferenced and most likely, unreferenceable. I suggest serious cleanup. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 10:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, personally I see this organic article as at a good point for a bit of an overhaul. The trivia and pop culture sections are interesting but a bit useless as is and, to me, the entire article should be re-structured and use those examples of how bear cultures have become more mainstream. It might also make sense to make a conscious decision to either be inclusive to all bear communities (which I think would be difficult) or rename and re-aim the lede to state there is a growing emergence of bear cultures within the LGBT movements which is mostly gay men. Rename suggestion --> Bear cultures (gay), or something similar unless the article is gong to try to accurately discuss most of the bear communities around the world which I don't recommend. Benjiboi 20:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you Benji. This article needs a good overhauling and sources. Your renaming suggestion is good as long as we don't come into any merge arguments once renamed with any other articles such as Chubby chaser, BBW etc. -- ALLSTARecho 21:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Well BBW is about women so I don't see an issue there whereas Chubby Chaser predates bear and should be expanded not merged so I'll back up any discussion that baits a merge trap. Benjiboi 22:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm supportive of your efforts to cleanup and rewrite this article. (Just for the record) Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rename (thus focusing a bit more)

Per above "It might also make sense to make a conscious decision to either be inclusive to all bear communities (which I think would be difficult) or rename and re-aim the lede to state there is a growing emergence of bear cultures within the LGBT movements which is mostly gay men. Rename suggestion --> Bear cultures (gay), or something similar unless the article is going to try to accurately discuss most of the bear communities around the world which I don't recommend." Does Bear culture (gay) make sense for this article? If not any suggestions? Also I should clarify I meant that it's mostly gay men in the bear cultures not in the LGBT movements. Benjiboi 22:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I would think Bear (gay) would be correct. The word expresses not just a distinct community and culture, but a distinct identity as well. I would rather see the term itself be the subject of the article rather than some aspect of it. And THANK YOU for your work, Benjiboi; you have done a bang-up job on GLBT articles and your efforts are much appreciated. TechBear (talk) 23:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Much appreciated TechBear! It's stressed me out a lot so I only do a little each time. Per the title then I wonder if Bear (gay slang) then is most appropriate to keep in line with similar articles of gay slang? Benjiboi 00:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I would push against the (gay slang) label. While the word "bear" is used as slang to mean someone who is older/hairier/fatter than the current archetype of gay male beauty, it also represents a distinct sub-set in a way that "twink" and similar slang words do not. As I said above, "bear" is an identity, a community and a sub-culture. While a comparison can be made between the circuit party circuit and the bear event circuit, I have yet to see anything along the lines of an International Twink Rendezvous. ;-b TechBear (talk) 00:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it should be Bear (gay) or Bear (gay slang). If you just do the first, you're leaving out others within the community such as chasers, otters, etc. which will in turn call for their own articles and face deletion, etc. And as a bear, I'm offended by gay slang. Being a bear or loving bears is an identity, not a nickname or latest cool gay slang like santorum :P Seriously, I really like Bear culture (gay) - if it just really, absolutely has to have a name change because I don't see anything wrong with its current name except maybe it should be Bear community (gay) instead of just Bear community. -- ALLSTARecho 00:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Disagree. The modifier gay is to address that the articles focus is on bear culture within LGBT communities as I'm certain there are other bear interests out there that are not LGBT. Slang simply means that a word is not meant literally and "usage of slang expressions can spread outside their original arenas to become commonly used, such as "cool" and "jive". Slang can be argot and pejorative which the article can delve into as appropriate. To address the other (totally valid) concerns I say focus on the end game; little old lady hears the word and turns to wikipedia to get an answer what is all the fuss about. I think this article should lede with bear as gay slang with major sections on history of term (an outgrowth in opposition to twink and gym queen cultures intertwined with the AIDS pandemic condition of wasting), bear culture (with further subsections including major events, terminology); modifiers (Black bear, Polar bear, Muscle bear, Panda bear, etc) ; and a subsection just for otters with the potential that it could grow into it's own article (but that's a way off I imagine). I'll also state that I'm a bit of an inclusionist so am slow to delete good content but I see the whole pop culture and "controversy" sections as problematic so reworking the structure might provide some framework in which that content would make sense to the average reader. Benjiboi 02:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
You make good points. While I don't much care for the slang label, you have the experience so I will defer. Would it be worth setting up a sandbox for the rewrite, or will the existing article be changed in-place? TechBear (talk) 02:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, unless I'm wrong it is slang otherwise it may sound like we are referring to gay bears which is already covered in the homosexuality of animals article. I'm in no rush here so let's make sure Bear (gay slang) is the way to go. My hunch is that it would be the "mother" article with any potential other articles (like community, otter, etc) birthing out of it as it grows too large. If we go with something else (even "otter") the first part of the article is explaining what a bear is anyway. Benjiboi 08:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't necessarily referring to "otter vs bear" but rather how defining this article about a single subject, as Bear (gay slang) does, then you'd have to end up creating seperate articles for chasers, otters, ursophile, etc. By leaving community in the name, you're including just that, the community of which revolves around bear culture. I still prefer Bear community (gay) but you know I have the deepest admiration and respect for you Benji so whatever you feel is necessary, I'll support. -- ALLSTARecho 15:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Indent reset. Mucho appreciated and back atchya! I see no problem with including the communities content as well as otter et al with a move to Bear (gay slang) and would actually expect to see that in the article. This is who uses this term applies to and why and how and here is the communities, events and naming conventions that are a part of this minority within a minority community. We're opening an accurate window to this world for those looking and we should work it out to be an informative good read. There's piles of great stuff out there I know it's possible. Benjiboi 12:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I got a pile of great stiff for you alright... :P haha -- ALLSTARecho 16:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Psst, Benji! Your Freudian slip is showing. "Piles of great stiff" indeed. ;-b Either that or you need to lay off on the eggnog. TechBear (talk) 23:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Lol! I'm such a bad speller. Corrected a few of my typos. Benjiboi 03:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

outdent. OK, now that all have fermented on my creative spelling! can we move forward with a rename to Bear (gay slang) without prejudice to all the content (i.e. we find ways to keep things presently in the article even though we're restructuring)? Benjiboi 17:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

woof! and mumble something about losing sense of community. -- ALLSTARecho 17:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Feel free, and I will do what I can to help. Thanks yet again for your work, Benji! TechBear (talk) 18:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gummi bears

Want to make a note before I forget, Gummi bears are into latex, rubber fetishes; there was a London club by that name was somehow involved in the Operation Spanner case and i believe there is some German pop song about this as well. Benjiboi 03:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Update the pop song might have simply been adopted as the song I Am Your Gummy Bear actually has dance versions as well as Spanish and French versions all put out by Gummibar on Gummibear International. Benjiboi 10:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
More for those who care or are looking,
“ A 30 second video clip for this little green troubadour's song I'm A Gummy Bear has met an enthusiastic response around the globe with more than 14 million plays on YouTube and MySpace video alone. This multi-lingual hit - available in English, French, Spanish, German and the original Hungarian - has won the hearts of fun-loving audiences everywhere. It has gone on to hit the best seller lists in every country in which it was released. ”
You've been warned! Benjiboi 10:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "original research"?

In what sense in the analysis of a concept "original research"? I wrote that stuff. I didn't research it at all. The fact is when you call a man a bear you do it for a reason. It's like a literary allusion. The only way to understand what it means is to understand what it achieves.

Additionally it's important not to dilute the concept such that we are pretending women can be bears, or that transexuals are a significant part of bear culture. if you start doing this, the article reads like a reflection of the author's preoccupations and politics and misleads people. (theobald2526 10/12/07) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theobald2526 (talk • contribs) 02:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I think as we do some article overhauling you'll find the history of bears in the LGBT community includes Mama Bears who were mostly lesbian women but I think that usage has lessened recently. Also Transgender men make not be a significant portion of the overall community but it's also false to state that bears are only gay and bisexual. Benjiboi 21:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I've never heard lesbian bears called Mama Bears but have heard "LesBruin". -- ALLSTARecho 05:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
There was a Mama's Bear cafe, still might be, in Northern California, Oakland I think. I'm pretty sure is was a defacto lesbian hangout and meeting place for small organizations but I wasn't going to spend research time on that aspect just yet. Benjiboi 01:45, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology discussed

[edit] Terminology: Wolf

For Christ's Sake, don't tell your parents you're a bear! It will only confuse them. - John Waters.
For Christ's Sake, don't tell your parents you're a bear! It will only confuse them. - John Waters.

In the Terminology section of this article, the term "Wolf" is mentioned (and capitalized) in the definition of the term "Otter." A comparison is made between the two, noting the primary difference. However, the term "Wolf" itself is not defined. Both the comparison and the capitalizing of "Wolf" renders it a term that needs its own definition. the terminology list needs to be expanded to include "Wolf." tigerdg (talk) 04:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reference cleanup

I cleaned up an edit made by an anonymous IP, and noticed that the list of references is poorly done. I will try to get to it this evening, but if anyone else wants to take it on, go for it. TechBear (talk) 19:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.134.119.35 (talk) 20:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)