Talk:Bayside, Queens

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[edit] Suburbs or City?

Will someone please clear this up? The article says: "It is one of New York's most ethnically diverse suburbs, though inside the City limits." If it's inside the city limits, then it can't be a suburb, now can it? Whoever wrote that obviously wasn't thinking straight.

See suburb. That article needs some editing, but it makes clear that the term is often used in an economic rather than municipal sense. Bayside is economically no more urban than Hempstead, though the latter is legally a village, a term which also has both legal and economic meanings. Perhaps commuter town would make clearer the economic function of Bayside without confusing readers with irrelevant legal connotations. Or am I mistaken in my assumption that our anonymous contributor is objecting to possible legal implications of "suburb?" Jim.henderson 18:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Well I thought that there was the city, and then that city had its suburbs outside of the city. So if Bayside is in Queens, which is a borough in New York City, then it is in the city and not a suburb regardless of whether it is considered "urban" or not. See Chestnut Hill, Philadelphia.

Please remember the standard way to sign, with four tildes. Yes, I know little of Philadelphia, having visited half a dozen times but yes, the description uggests a similar if older and mildly more urbane place, economically suburban and legally part of the "central city" of a metropolitan area. If so, then one meaning of "suburb" applies and another does not. Several places in eastern Queens, including Queens Village, Floral Park and Rosedale, are similar in these regards.

Remember, when the City of Greater New York was formed, the majority of the people were economically suburbanites, and the majority of the land was economically rustic, which is to say Queens was full of cows, farmhouses and country roads for many years after it came within the municipal "city". We wouldn't deny rustic status to the Bayside of that day, on the basis of incorporation law, would we? Jim.henderson 03:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course we wouldn't deny Bayside its rustic status. So I guess it all comes down to if you consider rustic to be exclusively rural/suburban or not. If there is a rustic area within a major urban area, sure its rustic, but its within the city limits, making it part of the city. Look, I was just confused because in Philly, no one refers to Chestnut Hill as a Philadelphia "suburb", although if you went there for the first time as an outsider, that's the first thing you would think. No, Philly has suburbs such as Cherry Hill, NJ, or Chester, Pa. But Chestnut Hill is in the city limits therefore no one considers it a suburb, just a rich neighborhood in the city. I'm just using this as an example because that is what I am most familiar with and was confused. 72.70.156.11 18:31, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

That quote makes perfect sense to me...although maybe it's because I grew up in Bayside. But irregardless, the statement is factually correct. Jim.henderson brought up all the main points already, but on Wikipedia, suburbs are "residential areas on the outskirts of a city or large town," and outskirts are the "transition zone where urban and rural uses mix." Bayside is extremely suburban in character, AND it's part of New York City...I don't see a contradiction at all. New York City does have suburbs outside its city limits, but even within the city there are neighborhoods that are varying degrees of urban/suburban, commercial/residential. You know, Ernest Burgess, Concentric ring model. Maybe we could clarify the above statement, but it seems pretty clear to me and I can't think of any way to make the idea any clearer. --Drenched 08:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Hah! Thanks; I've been spouting Burgessism for decades but didn't know the bull's eye theory had a name or an author. With no formal education in the topic I just assumed the idea has been around forever. Anyway despite all the defending I've been doing, I rewrote the lead with a link to commuter town and a hope that readers will not confuse that idea with a "town" in its New York legal or colloquial meanings. I also tossed in a bit about suburbanization, but that's down in the history section with another hope, that the reader will already be thinking more precisely about what the words mean. And didn't the Flushing and North Side Railroad or some other line once operate along Flushing Bay and all the way to Bayside? Must look that up.

Minor point, it's nice to see everyone signing with four tildes but you get respect more quickly by having a name and account, suggesting that you're taking the job seriously. Obviously we can be stupid jerks as easily with an account as without, but when we have an account, we expose ourselves to an easy check of our other works with the "contributions" link in the edit record and help everyone understand what we're about. Oh, and a trivial point, usually it's best to put new comments at the bottom of the section of the talk page rather than directly under the words to which we reply. No harm in this case, but when life gets more complex this rule helps deconfuse matters. Jim.henderson 21:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips, I'm kinda new at this. But I did go and create a name and account like you said, so hopefully that will help in the future. I noticed the commuter town edit and I think it serves the purpose well. No more confusion. Again, thanks for all the help with the things here on Wikipedia. PhillyPhan83 02:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome. It's like life; we don't get out of it alive but we have fun in the meantime and help each other. In the meantime I've discovered that there once was a ferry landing and terminal of the Flushing and North Shore Railroad at 155th Street, not quite in Bayside but a pleasant 20 miles bike ride through Laguardia Airport from my home. Oh yes, along the way I must check for remnants of the half century defunct railroad bridge over Flushing River. And the whole Wikipedia seems to have no mention of the Great Blue Onion of Whitestone. So, of course I must visit that peninsula, sometime next month. And then there's the New York Wikipedian meeting in Central Park in August. See, it never finishes. At least I hope not. Jim.henderson 01:06, 16 June 2007 (UTC)