Talk:Bayreuth Festival

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Contents

[edit] older entries

In fact, the Bayreuth Theatre during WWII illustrates the Socialist aspect of Nazism. For the first time since it's founding common slobs, working class, poor folks, the less privieldges, or whatever name you wanna give to it, could afford tickets, because the theatre operated with a direct government subsidy on Hitler's orders. nobs 19:10, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

That's true, but most of those people did not want to attend it and found opera to be a bore. They were forced to attend as Hitler's guests (see my additions to article). Dtaw2001 15:08, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Those additions are very good & well written; let me express one reservation. The "Nazi era" is now somewhat disproportionate to the size of the article. I suspect this can only be balanced by improving the earlier and later sections, which I'm looking to forward to. Thanks. nobs 15:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. I will try to add more to other sections when I can, although much of it is covered in other articles pertaining to the characters involved in Bayreuth.Dtaw2001 16:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Here's an idea: structure the article along the lines of Directorship, beginning with
  • Richard Wagner era
  • Cosima Wagner era
  • Siegried Wagner era
  • Winifred Wagner era
  • Wieland Wanger era
  • Wolfgand Wanger era
  • The future
Hence, all the Nazi crap will fall under Winifred, and be less obrtrusive. nobs 16:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello, interesting discussion. I authored the article on Wolfgang Wagner and moved some material that had been here to the separate entry on the Festspielhaus. I mention this because I think it's important to ensure that the content on this page remains centred on the actual festival, and not get bogged down into subsidiary details. Notable conductors and productions, for example, could be mentioned with some justfication. Also, a note on the above suggestion: Wolfgang and his brother Wieland ran the festival together, so they would not have separate eras. I think a postwar/reconstruction era could be more apt. Dottore So 18:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I added some detail to balance out the article with the Nazi section. I also moved some material from the Wagner article, which is already too long, and which is more appropriate in this article. Finally, I think we need more detail on the Siegfried Wagner era and the Post-War period. Also, some modern photos would be nice, perhaps a screenshot from a Bayreuth Festival DVD under the "fair use" category.Dtaw2001 20:15, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article nearly complete

I have made a large number of changes and additions over the past few days. I think the article is almost complete. Any suggestions? I still think some modern photos would be nice. Dtaw2001 16:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The decision to replace Wolfgang Wagner with his daughter, Eva-Pasquier Wagner, as Theatre Director appears to be taking place this fall (now). Nike Wagner, her cousin and only other candidate, will continue productions elsewhere. nobs 18:47, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Is that official? If so it should be noted here and at Wolfgang Wagner. Btw, as it now stands, I think this article could be up put for Featured Article status. It's only missing references. Dottore So 20:58, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Not official, but the news was a decision is to be made right about now to keep Wolgang Wagner or pass it on to his daughter; so I'm watching for news anyday now. nobs 21:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I have added more references, including external links, and discography. Also added to featured article candidates Dtaw2001 16:35, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Article looks very good in my opinion. Important procedural note: I have removed the FA tag for the moment since the article needs to go through peer review prior to being submitted. I have asked for comments from the peer review page as well. Please feel free to reinstate the fac if you wish, but I think procedure usually dictates review prior to submission to the featured article level. The FAC entry should be temporarily withdrawn.
Dettore, since you wrote the Wolfgang Wagner article, I assume you are well versed in the subject matter. So why don't you peer review the article? Dtaw2001 17:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I will be happy to provide some commentary, although as you can tell from my above remarks I am impressed as it is. However, the peer review is essentially a procedural formality. Would you consider striking the FAC until we have accumulated feedback from peer review? I have added the p.r. request to the FAC entry, but removing it for the time being from list might be easiest pending comment. Oops - per comment left at peer review, request, my understanding of procedureis faulty. So I have reinstated the fac and scratched my comment there. (The PR page could still be useful for accumulating advice.) Dottore So 18:01, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Artistic acheivements in Early History section

Not everyone agreed that the festival was artistically an "outstanding success." In contrast to Tchaikovsky, George Bernard Shaw, who attended some of Bayreuth’s earliest performances had this to say:

Those who go to Bayreuth never repent it, although the performances there are often far from delectable. The singing is sometimes tolerable, and some times abominable. Some of the singers are mere animated beer casks, too lazy and conceited to practise the self-control and physical training that is expected as a matter of course from an acrobat, a jockey or a pugilist. The women's dresses are prudish and absurd…Further, whilst Wagner's stage directions are sometimes disregarded as unintelligently as at Covent Garden, an intolerably old-fashioned tradition of half rhetorical, half historical-pictorial attitude and gesture prevails. The most striking moments of the drama are conceived as tableaux vivants with posed models, instead of as passages of action, motion and life.
I need hardly add that the supernatural powers of control attributed by credulous pilgrims to Madame Wagner do not exist. Prima donnas and tenors are as unmanageable at Bayreuth as anywhere else. Casts are capriciously changed; stage business is insufficiently rehearsed; the public are compelled to listen to a Brynhild or Siegfried of fifty when they have carefully arranged to see one of twenty-five, much as in any ordinary opera house. Even the conductors upset the arrangements occasionally.

Dtaw2001 03:13, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this refers to what was often called the "Bayreuth style", of rigid poses, actors pacing methodically and stand absolutely still, a very "stiff" production. And it is associated with the theatre under Cosima Wagner's direction, after Richard death. It is regarded as her attempt to preserve in as close a manner possible Wagner's direction and staging, and not allowing actors to improvise, modify, or take over the staging. This existed for many years, and was only somewhat modified during Siegfried Wagner's short stint as director, and Winifred's (really Tietjen's productions) are often refered to as some of the best. It is the "New Bayreuth" were the style really associated with Cosima disappeared completely. nobs 03:50, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discography

I've tried to include a fair representation of the more important recordings from different eras. I recently added a couple of historical recordings to the CD section. However, I have not been able to find any recent recordings to add to the modern recordings section. If anyone knows of any, please add them. Dtaw2001 22:32, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I've added the Boulez and Barenboim Rings which were originally on CD and two of the many Parsifals by Kna to the Historical CDs section.--Dogbertd 13:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually I've now changed this a bit to "Historical" and "Postwar productions", since "Modern productions" was, I thought, a rather arbitrary term. Hope this is OK. --Dogbertd 13:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hitler

I'm sorry I forgot to sign in before editing the article, but here's what I've done. The article says: Although the festival was plagued by financial problems in its early years, it survived through state intervention and the continued support of influential Wagnerians, including King Ludwig II of Bavaria and Adolf Hitler.

I deleted Hitler because we are talking of THE EARLY YEARS of the Festival, Hitler came almost 60 years after 1876, when Bayreuth was already well established. Adding his name at this point seems to me a bit gratuitous (if not malicious). --Moloch981 22:48, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Point well taken. There was certainly no malicious intent, only that this sentence was written when the article was very short and not broken into several sections. Therefore, it was not originally under the Early History section, but as part of the general history. When later sections were added and expanded, this sentence was simply overlooked. (see version 02:05, 7 November 2005). Dtaw2001 15:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Herrmann Levi

The article states that Levi was "personally chosen by Wagner". I'd like to see a citation for this. was it not the case that, as the chief conductor of the munich opera he was chosen by King Ludwig, who owned the rights to Parsifal and who bankrolled the first festivals? My understanding was that, far from being chosen by Wagner, Wagner objected to Levi and tried to have him removed - because he was jewish - and that only once Ludwig dug his heels in did Wagner agree to Levi as the conductor for Parsifal. Citation, please.--Dogbertd 15:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

  • PS. I also thought that Humperdinck was involved in the first production of Parsifal, but not of The Ring, as stated here.--Dogbertd 15:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Added the reference. According to Spotts, [1]. Also you may note:

Notwithstanding his public utterances against Jewish influence in music, and even his utterances against specific Jews, Wagner had numerous Jewish friends and supporters even in his later period. Included amongst these were his favourite conductor Hermann Levi, the pianists Carl Tausig and Joseph Rubinstein, the writer Heinrich Porges and very many others. In his autobiography, written between 1865 and 1870, he declared that his acquaintance with the Jew Samuel Lehrs whom he knew in Paris in the early 1840s was ‘one of the most beautiful friendships of my life'. There remains, therefore, something enigmatic about Wagner's personal attitude; probably he was able to persuade himself that what he wrote needed to have nothing to do with what he felt or what was convenient for him. [1]

Dtaw2001 21:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Get that bear off my stage!

I've looked through several biographies - and Spotts estimable book, but can't see any justification for the statement made here that Wager insisted on real animals onstage. A real bear? a real toad? I know that one of the few participants he praised unreservedly after the first cycle was the (real) horse who played Grane, but were real rams and ravens used?--Dogbertd 13:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Animals now removed. I might put Grane back in later.--Dogbertd 19:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)