Talk:Bayern Munich/Archives2

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Beginning of the new millennium section

Since a millennium is 1000 years (and a very long time), shouldn't it be "Beginning of the 21st century"? Kingjeff 22:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Nah. That was the big buzz then. Everybody was calling it the turn of the millennium, not the turn of the century. Don't get the chance very often, so best to indulge yourself. Besides, millennium sounds cooler! :) Wiggy! 22:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


@ Wiggy

I kindly request you to leave historical issue more to me. Dombi moved on to Feijenoord is more correct than fled to Feijenoord. He did not fo either. For keeping the history short moved on will' do. His next job was actually with FC Basel - and he did not flee. When I have time I shall write the Bio of Dombi, alias Kohn, a quite remarkable figure in the history of the game. I just have at this moment not the time for it. Before that I will finish eg., Hennes Weisweiler. But not just now. I have also got other things to do. Having read a couple of articles re Nazis and football does not quite maketh the expert.

I believe, I have a very deep understanding of the club and its history and published in my lifetime quite a bit with regards to it.

If you want to wank yourself dry about Nazi football do something useful, make contributions to the Schalke Schalke and "TSV 1860 Munich" (nice web site to it on the web pre-existing) pages, or document international matches of that era.

This is all meant with friendship and in a cordial spirit.

I myself, in between, will hopefully be able to get the Bayern Munich page to a foremost standard, collate facts, and wahack them into an eventually presentable form with a suitable narrative accompanyment.

Cheers,

Oalexander-En 17:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

This is a collaboration. Leaving the historical issue to you is not collaborating. If there needs to be debate to settle a point, then fine, but again be civil. This is supposed to be a shared experience where we end up with the best possible result.

"Wank my self dry" is uncivil. I put some relevant information in context. I'm aware of Schalke and 1860 Munich and have made related comments in the Bundesliga and BM articles, not having edited the club pages. Nazism had an impact on German football and the lives of some of the games important persons. That should be acknowledged, plain and simple.

I'm prepared to debate points, and like the issue over Dombi "fleeing", its the type of thing one sorts out in a "friendly and cordial" manner. Dombi "left for" Switzerland because the climate in the country was becoming uncomfortable. He ended up in the Netherlands. Changing a couple of words fixed the thing. Civilly.

Look hard at something before you nuke it and if just needs a tweak, tweak it. Show some consideration for the work of others. You may well be a historical expert, but I write quite well. Surely there's some sawoff in there.

Now go easy and let us other kids play too, please. Wiggy! 18:07, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Some input from other players would be useful to resolving this, please. Pipe up folks. Wiggy! 18:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Editing Steps

I have thus far demonstrated my co-operative nature a great deal by explaining most of my editing steps here. I will continue to do so, even if this is probably nigh unprecedendet in the environment.

Oalexander-En 18:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest that all changes to the History before World War II section are thoroughly discussed here first, with an opportunity for third parties to contribute? If things are taken a bit more slowly it'll hopefully stop the edit war which appears to be in progress. Oldelpaso 19:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Which is what I was hoping for when I invited input. And no, Oa, your approach has not been co-operative. It's been abrasive and inconsiderate. Appointing yourself as THE expert on the club is high-handed. And while the attempt is good, the language of the article is weak. It doesn't carry the tone of an encyclopedia and is full of mistakes related to tense, sentence structure and common usage. Encyclopedia articles as a rule don't use a lot of exclamation marks and florid language. I repeat - its an encyclopedia, not a fan page and should read that way. Your history may be good, but at a minimum the writing style needs help. Wiggy! 19:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia should use Oalexander knowledge of the club. But allow others to maybe help out in someother as regards to his contributions. Kingjeff 20:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a basic issue with the facts laid down. The content has been generally consistent, but that doesn't bar others from adding to the body of fact in the work. However, the writing isn't even close to Featured Article standards. If going FA is an objective, the writing needs to be fixed. It's important to allow broader participation and take advantage of the various strengths of all the contributors. I don't see that in spirit or in fact. So, without putting words in your mouth, I guess I'm I agreeing with you. Wiggy! 21:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Bayern under the Nazis

Bayern, beyond the elimination of Jews from its ranks, did not suffer any particular obvious pressures. Party appointed presidents were not running it before 1938. The successors of Landauer where non-jewish, but else bona fide up to then.

German football under the Nazis was different from what German football had previously been. All clubs came under some measure of political pressure. Some were disbanded or restructured to be politically tame entities. The league structure was significantly altered. The regime had a deliberate policy of bending social institutions, including sports and football clubs, to their objectives. The Allies deliberate deconstruction of German organizations "contaminated" by the Nazi's immediately after the war during the occupation had a direct effect on German football clubs. To say the club suffered no ill effects "beyond the elimination of Jews from its ranks" utterly flies in the face of the lessons of that period of history. Football teams were not the engine of the regimes policies, but like the rest of the country they certainly were caught up in it. Some teams, like Bayern and Alemania, were able to stand up in some way to the tide and should receive some recognition for it. They entry acknowledges the impact on Bayern and German society in general of the country's darkest period.
The material is relevant to the history of German football in a broad sense and not just to the history of the club. I can't see skipping it.
And sign your name, please. Wiggy! 17:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I tend to sign with my name I guess. Sometimes I may forget; rarely, I supoose.

Else, why don't you create an article "Major German Football Clubs in the Third Reich and vent details in order to create aan authoritative compilation. Maybe do some exciting research for a change. Live is not all about ruminating.

Oalexander-En 18:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

While it needs to be said, I can't see it necessary to belabour the thing. Reference in the context of a club's history is sufficient I think. Wiggy! 18:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Club Names in Italics

I am not sure ehat putting all club names in italics is good for. It's not done everywhere else. Else see => italics!

Richard Dombi

... did not flee to the Netherlands. This is factually wrong!!! He moved on - but certainly did flee in the sense of fleeing from immediate personal danger. Can you leave the shyte as is and maybe do some research.

Oalexander-En 17:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


If you need to fix a fact that's fine, fix it. But be civil. I don't want to get into an edit war with you, but you've gone and hacked out a bunch of stuff that's relevant and interesting to the club history. It wouldn't hurt to leave it in place.

And yeah, I have done some research. Just like you. There's room for everyone to make contributions, which I gather is the nature of a collaboration. Show some generosity and consideration for the spirit of the project.

Again, it should read like an encyclopedia article – not a fan page. Wiggy! 17:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Improvement Drive - State of Affairs

The content has by now successfully transormed from a quasi fan-page to NPOV content. Most of the things worth consigning to the knowledge of posterity have been added by now. There is still a major issue to deal with:

  • Content length: This will be handled by summarising the content of "History" and whacking the long verison on a seperate page FC Bayern Munich - History

Once this is done the content will be restructured and put into a order as found in recommended pertinent articles (eg. IFK Göteborg, Arsenal FC)

This means, we will end up with somethin like

  • History
  • Club Honours
  • Players
  • Coaches
  • Stadium

etc., in a yet to determined sequence.


Further emphasis will be put on filling the blanks. This means if an item (eg., a name) is worth linking from the page it is worth writing an article to it. No more shining red links!!!

I myself, beyond dealing with some issues on the Bayern Munich page, have since added articles to Jupp Heynckes, "Czik" Cajkovski, William Townley and others.

There are still many other and rewarding topic to be found: Franz Roth (here research might be focussing if there is another player out there who has decided with a single goal two European finals - by all means ans interesting player), Wilhelm Neudecker, the father of the modern FC Bayern, Richard Dombi (Hungarian, played for Austria, created Feyenoord Rotterdam as we know it, Bayerns first championship coach), Branko Zebec who won with some other club the UEFA Cup, before succeeding big-time as coach in Germany, Dettmar Cramer, Germany's globe-trotting coach, Max Merkel, Pal Csernai, Uli Hoeness, etc.

It s all about acquiring specialist knowledge: adopt a guy, decide to love him or hate him - and most impoerantly, find out everything about him you can, and write it up for a global audience. For me, not being a natural scientist, Wikipedia is all about an opportunity of document the past so that ensuing generations can reconstruct it perfectly, and at ease.

I am not sure if anybody has any idea, how long it took me to research the first of the great coaches in Germany, Wiliam Townley. It is a project still not yet finished, and it cost me tons of hours, and I am still working on it. Just yesterday I found out about his engagement with Eintracht Hannover.

Beyond fixing up typos, there is a lot left to do.

Cheers to all.

Oalexander-En 16:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

If the article is to be divided up, it might be better to slough off all the trivia to separate pages. If you cut out the history of the club all you're left with is the minuate that only a serious fan would enjoy — as I understand it, that's not the point of the exercise. Take the list of coaches and attendance and presidents and captains and move that material to a separate page, along the lines of what I suggested somewhere above on this discussion page. Remember, it's not a fan page, its an encyclopedia entry and it has to read as one in its content and its tone. You've done a ton of work, but now we're running the risk of getting off track with this article.

Wiggy! 16:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Oalexander, You may find the Football Club Manual of Style useful. Most of the records and statistics at the bottom should go to Statistics of Bayern Munich. Oldelpaso

Will all happen before the end of this week (ie., Fri 10 Feb 2005).

Oalexander-En 15:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

New "Discussion" Entries

This refers to new stuff that goes onto this page here, should be added to the top for immediate visibility, unless they refer to subjects already listed. This takes care that old stuff goes more and more down into the storage cellar and out of sight. Word of the day: transparency!

Oalexander-En 15:10, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I find this somewhat confusing, given that the top of the page says "Place comments that start a new topic at the bottom of the page and give them == A Descriptive Header ==". New discussions at the bottom is recommended by Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Oldelpaso 18:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

"Greatest Players Ever" section

I have removed the little stories to the players, as all that stuff should be available from their respective wikipedia articles or other context. It was not not necessary to double up here.

Oalexander-En 15:10, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Coaches William Townley and Jupp Heynckes

They had these shiny red links on the Bayern page. I since have written articles for both:

Football history buffs (not only Bayern fans!), will be particularly fond of the Townley one!

Oalexander-En 15:10, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Aforementioned history buffs might also like two other contributions I have added inside the last few days:

Cheers,

Oalexander-En 17:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Nice job on Townley. Good to see the German football stuff coming together so nicely. Wiggy! 22:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Recent Changes (February 3, 2006)

The entry for Bayern has now experienced a significant consolidation. The content length is more in line with Wikipedia guidelines, and even more importantly, the content has been transformed from a more fan-site-typical make up to a more bread and butter facts based type of situation.

It is still far from being anywhere near perfect. Thus, the next days will see a further streamlining of the content and a more user friendly structuring. I am aware that there are also still a few typos around: whoever finds one may keep it, or even better fix it.

Further attempts will be made to further increase the number of hard facts for the target audience.

Let's see, if in the end the price for the most improved page can be garnered!

Oalexander-En 21:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Facts and trivia

Removed due to lack of relevance. Oalexander-En 19:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Club Nickname

Bayern has NO nick. "FC Hollywood" was temporary jargon of the press some ten years ago, "Bazis" did not really catch on, and "Bayern", well that's the name of the team, but no nickname. What else should they call it? "Borussia"". No nick is no nick.

Oalexander-En 18:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

About the nickname thing, I agree that FC Hollywood would not be an appropriate nickname. I'd say Bayern because you can consider it a shortname that everybody uses. Also on the official website, they usually call the team: "The Reds", i don't know if it would make it for a nickname because its very general and it works for other teams (i.e. Kaiserslautern). Bottom line, I think a nickname should be mentioned because it renders the team more personal hence gives an "apercu" on the fan attachment...

Kaiser23 06:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


Kaiserslautern are the Red Devils. Kingjeff 15:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I can see mention of FC Hollywood and Bazis being made in the context of derisive names for the club used by the press or other club's supporters. It would help get across the idea of the hate-on some folks have for Bayern. The Reds works to distinguish them in town from 1860 who are The Blues. Both these references work, but only in context. Wiggy! 02:10, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


"A nickname should be mentioned because it renders the team more personal ..." - and it would render my cat more personal if it could speak. Fact is: my cat cannot speak, and Bayern simply has no nickname! If I tell s/body "the reds have won over the weekend", would they know whom I am talking about? No. Does this settle it?

Oalexander-En 12:55, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


I browsed my way through Bayerns home page and the fan and history sections of both the English and German versions (I can't read Chinese!) make reference to the team as the Reds, so that might indeed be a legit reference. Graze through the site and see what you think. Wiggy! 15:20, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The term "the Reds/die Roten" has never ever come across to me in the regular press, radio, tv, etc. Even in fan forums the expression has only ever cropped up once to me, but that was one of the "Gymnasts / Turner", ie., TSV 1860, when it was used in the context if it was a good idea to go with "the Reds" into the stadium joint venture. Else the used mostly "Bauern" ("farmers', but I guess they would rather translate "peasants").

Many, many years ago "Rothosen" ("red shorts") was in use to some extent. But I have heard this term for the last time, I guess, yes, it was in the seventies!

Maybe you want to try the following test google »site:transfermarkt.de die roten« . Hannover would be a common result (Transfermarkt is a pretty comprehensive German football forum site). Note that the expression would have to be in an in an unequivocal positive sense and pretty common to boot to qualify as a "nickname". Nickname stuff like die "Roten" or "Bayern" is only ever used in contexts where there are forms to be filled out and people feel compelled to fill something in. Some automatism. Like if I amske what my fav milk flavour is. Probably I would check something like "chocolate" even if I am known for not having touched milk since the days when the term "Rothosen" was last heard. Cheers,

Oalexander-En 17:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Retired players in new functions & Corporate social responsibility

Somehow interesting, but both sections were well exceeding the scope of the environment.

Oalexander-En 18:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe what the article needs is a section – made up only of links to other wiki pages – that can cover off some of the esoterica. And it can have some cool heading like Bayern Munich for the Truly Rabid. Or The Cult of Bayern Munich. Or just More Bayern Munich ... Wiggy! 02:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Keen idea!!! The first Ultra Nerds -Oalexander-En 14:55, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Rummenigge President?

Maybe at some stage of the future, maybe ofter the Kaiser becomes UEFA president. Up to now he is the president and chairman of the supervisory board. KH Rummenigge is chairman of the executive board. BTW: in German corporate hierarchy the supervisory board ("Aufsichtsrat") is above the executive board ("Geschäftsleitung").

Oalexander-En 14:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

1963 not in the Bundesliga - Injustice?

Some might feel so, but everything proceed in line with the association's (DFB) outline for the league. At very best the term "controversy" is applicable. Everything else is falsification of history.

Oalexander-En 14:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I've been trying to pin down exactly what the criteria were for get into the Bundesliga that first year. From what I gather the criteria were three-fold: results over the previous ten years, financial stability and geographical representation. Word is that the fourth criterion was being owned by one of the guys on the selction committee, which apparently worked out quite well for Kickers Offenbach.

I'd really love to see that ten-years results table ... Wiggy! 02:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

UEFA Cup 1962

Up to about 1971 it was called the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, or Messepokal in German.

Oalexander-En 14:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Language

Terms like "goalie" are not really appropriate for an encyclopaedia article. Oalexander-En 12:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Reserve Squad

The inclusion of the reserve squad exceeds the scope an encyclopaedia article. Who, but the bravest Bayern fans should be interested? Oalexander-En 12:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Vote for manager

212.187.155.156 thinks Uli Hoeness is the manager. I think Felix Magath is the manager. Let's vote for who the manager is. Kingjeff 04:15, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Felix Magath

  • Support Kingjeff 04:15, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Uli Hoeness

Comment

There's been no arguments for either of the sides, so let's get some information before going into a vote. At the Bayern hompage Magath is named "Head Coach" while Hoeness is "Deputy Chairman Executive Board" - subordinate to Rummenigge who is "Chairman Executive Board" so as I see it Hoeness is the "assistant" of Rummenigge and not manager in his own right. Also, all other Bundesliga clubs have the head coach as "manager" apart from Schalke 04 where Rudi Assauer is clearly stated as "manager" on the clubs website. So, I don't think you should bother with a vote and just change it back to Magath. If the editor wants to change it some arguments will have to surface from his side. Poulsen 11:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

In England (I know Bayern Munich is in Germany), Head Coaches are refered to as Managers. Wikipedia has Sir Alex Ferguson is a Scottish football manager which is the same position as Felix Magath. Kingjeff 15:53, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the confusion stems from poor command of the English language. In the English language, the term "manager" is used, among others, for the coach and differs from the meaning of the term "manager" as it is used in the German language. Since this is an English language website, the term manager is correctly used for Klaus Magath! (JMK, New York, January 22, 2006).


Honours for Players

Can we get individual players into a table? It'll look much better. Kingjeff 18:07, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


That surely is possible, I just do not know what you havew got in mind. Pls specify. cheers,

Oalexander-En 18:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Here's an example.


Individual awards won by Bayern players
Player Awards won Years
Franz Beckenbauer Ballon d'Or
German Player of the Year		 1972, 1976
1966, 1968, 1974, 1976

Kingjeff 18:27, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Seems to be ok, but the sort order in this context would have to be by title I suppose. I hope u like the implementation!

Oalexander-En 13:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I like the topic for team championships. I tried a table for it a while ago. But 1 or 2 people put up a big fuss about it. But lets keep it the way it is. Kingjeff 18:46, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Pic

Are you absolutely sure that is the correct pic? Its a trifle strange that bayern munich fans would wave blue and white flags..ok,VERY strange. Kinda crazy 14:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I am absolutely 100% sure those are Bayern Munich fans. I know at least 2 of the flags they are holding are flags of Bavaria Kingjeff 22:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Kinda crazy, if you take a really close look at the pic then you can see they're Bayern fans. If you take a look at the checkard blue and white flag at the rigt side then you'll see a someone wearing somekind of Bayern scarf around his neck.
This pic was taken at Olympic Stadium in Berlin when Bayern faced MSV 1919 Neuruppin in the DFB Cup. Kingjeff 15:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Kingjeff, I'm form Bavaria myself and I can tell you for sure that these flags are definately NOT Bavarian. It's true that one of them seems to have an Fc Bayern scarf, but the rest doesn't look like Bayern-fans to me. That's why I'm going to remove it again (You can trust me, I know how our flag looks like :-) Fulcher 23:43, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I know 2 of them were Bavarian flags. Even check the Bavaria page. Kingjeff 00:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

My previous comment is in reference of the front 2 flags that are checkered blue and white. I think they are definitely Bavarian flag. They match the flag showen for the Bavaria article. Kingjeff 00:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

"But the rest doesn't look like Bayern-fans to me." Bayern were the visiting team in this paticular game and therefore would all (or mostly) be Bayern fans. On a side not, are we not allowed to edit by section anymore? Kingjeff 00:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

That blue-and-white diamond pattern is the same one that appears in the centre field of Bayern's crest. And yeah, its from the state flag of Bavaria, so everything looks to be in order. The other flag I've seen used is white over red with a crest in the centre. Wiggy! 02:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

For me it is also far from showing typical bayern fans. Probably the pic shows Neurupin fans. And there are no bavarian flags on the pic. The flag has transverse quads. 129.217.129.133 03:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

You have me saying at least 2 of those flags are Bavarian flags andWiggy! saying even more of the flags are associated with Bavaria. Kingjeff 03:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, on closer examination of the pic, 129.217.129.133 is right. Those flags are showing the wrong pattern. It's gotta go! :) Wiggy! 03:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, here is another pic with fans (but bad quality):

Bayern fans in the Allianz Arena

AA bayernmunich coloured

129.217.129.133 04:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Somewhere on my hard rive I have a half way decent enough pic or two. Just, at this stage this is not really the major priority from my view point. The first priority was to remove the biggest nonsense an transfer it sort of from fan-page to NPOV. Next is consolidation of the content, and then, in the end we will tart it up with a few meaningful contextual illustrations. In the end the thing has to have the look and feel of the champions league of the wiki football club pages. What it will look for the next few transitional days matters not a lot. A few changes here and there for the time being, so that people see things are moving. Cheers,

Oalexander-En 17:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll give a little bit of credit for the flags. The flags are a whole different topic. But I still maintain that they're still Bayern fans. Kingjeff 19:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)