Talk:Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
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[edit] Page looks good
Whoever cleaned this up did a nice job. Taking out links that are not Bay Ridge specific was a good idea. This page should just be for the community, not political or religious.
[edit] Unbiased
I made some edits to reflect the anti-Arab tinge of the most recent edit. Bay Ridge is a diverse neighborhood, not a predominatly Catholic neighborhood with small Arab minorities. It seems that this page needs to be closely monitored becuase anti-Arabs sentiment, as well as pro-Arab boasting, seems to be bickering back-and-forth. My guess is that racists on both sides are trying to get their points across.
[edit] Clean up
This article is in need of some serious NPOV clean up. It is littered with statements that are biased and is not written in an encyclopaedic tone. Páll (Die pienk olifant) 09:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree, this article is in need of major editing...that is not representative of Bay Ridge. How is the section on the Islamic Society of Bay Ridge to be considered an encyclopedia entry on a neighborhood?! Arabs make up a small part of the population of Bay Ridge, yet someone gave them their own section...if you're going to do that then you need to write a section on the Irish, Norwegian, Italian, and Greeks of the neighborhood too.
[edit] Islamic Society of Bay Ridge
I would be more than happy to remove the portion about the Islamic Society of Bay Ridge. I've researched and written another article, directly related to this topic, called Shahawar Matin Siraj describing the attempted subway plot of 34th Street Herald Square. However, I feel that this entire issue, however controversial, is simply a conservative-liberal debate:
- The Anti-Arab Sentiment I was able to describe was real and did occur. It has since been deleted by a more conservative user who felt that this was an inaccurate description of the neighborhood sentiment or the attempt of a user to portray the neighborhood in a more negative sense.
- Likewise, the Islamic Society of Bay Ridge was also deleted several times because it "lacked adequate facts." I disagree because I have factual evidence to the contrary, quoting New York Times articles. The same is true of the Anti-Arab sentiment, but no one was willing to side with the New York Times article that I showed as proof. Why someone would want to have one but not the other is rather clear in my mind, but I would like an explanation about why the two positions are not accurate and not deserving of their place on this article.
Concerning the Islamic Society of Bay Ridge, it would probably do best if given a separate article, and, as it received great media coverage following 9/11, I think it is of sufficient importance to do so. Looking at other articles, I do not see as much contemporary politics as I do in this one, confirming my suspicions that the Islamic Society of Bay Ridge section would be best in another article.
However, as a provision to future editors, I strongly urge you to read and research the topic before you act emotionally and delete my work. I provide a strong case in all that I write and encourage others to do the same. Sincerely, --Screwball23 talk 22:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I added a couple of sentences acknowledging the Arab population. The fact is Bay Ridge is home to one of America's oldest Arab communities. Since the 1800s Lebanese Christians have been immigrating to the neighborhood. In recent years, Muslims from across the Middle East have also moved to Bay Ridge because of its history as a large enclave of Arabs. It didn't happen overnight. Among the Arab population, I'd say it's half Muslim and half Christian. It happened over 150 years. There is no reason for the Italians and Irish in the neighborhood to resent the Arabs when they've been living in Bay Ridge as long they have, if not longer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EnterPuppets (talk • contribs) 04:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe there's no reason to, but apparently, some do (see the vandalism I just reverted). --Irn (talk) 23:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Links
Once again, someone has messsed with the links. If you want to add a link, do so and put it at the end. Blogs are not permitted in links. Advertising (ie. BR Prep) is not permitted. What if everyone decided to use the links to advertise their business? Please show some respect when editing this page. 10 February 2008 --
I see that there is some fighting about the links. Please remember that Wikipedia is not a links repository. It is an encyclopedia. All links should be informative, and by that I mean telling you more about the neighborhood. Photo sites are fine, and forums are fine. Advertising and politics are not. The page is not being ruined by taking out links, because the article is not about the links, it is about the information being presented directly on the page. Which, I may add, could be better. -- Lampbane 18:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Middle Class
I changed "working class" in the first sentence of the "Life" section to "middle class." Bay Ridge is most definitely a middle class neighborhood, a kind that's becoming less and less common in Brooklyn (hence the second part of that sentence is correct). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 162.83.151.57 (talk) 07:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
"Bay Ridge is a largely middle class neighborhood and is one of the few such places remaining in Brooklyn."
I think this sentence could use some explanation. In what way are middle class neighborhoods becoming uncommon in Brooklyn? Are formerly middle class neighborhoods going to seed or becoming upper class neighborhoods? Can you cite an example or two? The sentence by itself does not seem to make much sense. Thank you.
I think the sentence refers to the combination of two things. One is the upscaling of the neighborhoods around downtown Brooklyn (Brooklyn Heights, Carroll Gardens, Park Slope, Fort Greene, etc., and, a bit farther north, Williamsburg and Greenpoint), many of which were well were fairly well off before, but are now beginning to rival areas of Manhattan in real estate prices and cultural cachet. The other is the changing demographics of the rest of Brooklyn in the postwar era, starting with white flight and continuing with the strong wave of Russian, Chinese, and Hispanic immigration into many areas of southern Brooklyn since the late 80s. Neighborhoods that were historically enclaves of particular European ethnic groups, such as Bensonhurst (Italians), are increasingly populated by immigrants who tend to have lower incomes than those they replaced, who often move to bigger (and often less expensive per square foot) homes in Staten Island or New Jersey. The other side of the demographic coin is the high degree of segregation between blacks and other racial groups in Brooklyn, which also heightens income disparities. This is all a reflection of the more general decline of the middle class in the United States; it's not specific to Brooklyn. But cities like New York, where people live in such close quarters, make contrasts like these more evident.
Hmmm...you talk about white flight and then mention the rise in Russian imigration to the neigborhood. I don't think that would be the right terminology in this case. I understand that you're saying that the 'status quo' residents are shifting between various ethnic groups. Again, though, we are discussing a city and neigborhood where people identify more fervently with there cultural background than their racial classification. An occurence that doesn't happen as much in the rest of the country. Just my own two cents. -SJI
I think 'white flight' is still a good term to use, at least to put the migration in the same context as that which occurred in lots of other American cities post-WWII. In New York, it just happened that there were periods where this was compensated for by immigration, a lot of which -in the case of southern Brooklyn- happened to be white, but, as you implied, of a very different cultural background, so the character of the demographic shift may be slightly concealed by the race numbers.
- Still there was clearly a demographics shift. If I remember correctly the neighborhood used to be mostly Scandinavian at one point. Obviously this is far from the case today despite the Norwegian Day Parade. There does seem to be a sort of erosion of certain cultural heritage in the area. Sunset Park's shift is clear to identify, it's just not Irish-Polish at all anymore. Bay Ridge's shift is more than ethnic. The area has a disproportionate number of Christian churches which seems a strange contrast to the large number of Jewish and Muslim residents now living in the area. JRWalko 14:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Strange contrast? Not at all. About 40% of the neighborhood is Irish or Italian. There are also a large number of Greek and Lebanese Christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.247.131.60 (talk) 01:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Finding Fault with Life
I have a number of peeves with the Life section to this article. The points that disturb me are sometimes subjective, so I am reluctant to step in with corrections until I can obtain some feedback. Whether you strongly affirm my views or believe them clearly in error, it would be good to hear from you. Your responses will decide whether (and how) I make changes to the article.
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There is some discussion about the presence of Arabs that has been removed from this article. In fact, while no one would describe BR as a predominantly arabic neighbourhood, there has been a distinctive arab presence in BR since shortly before 1900 (e.g. in the form of arab grocery stores). These early Arab residence were exclusively Christian refugees from the Levant - Lebannon and Syria (at that time still one country) - escaping war and religious persecution.
Beginning in the early 80s a large influx of culturally distinctive Arab Moslem began appearing. The addition of Arab muslims to ethnic mix is certainly the most conspicuous change in BR in recent years. As such, it is misleading (not to say ingenuous) to compare their role with other groups, e.g. the Scandanavians, whose community at one time was centred at almost the same location (near 69th Street), but which today is moribund.
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One article entry:
There is also a thriving bar scene, with residents frequenting the Irish pubs ..
This made me laugh. It must have been written by an estate agent, I guess. Bay Ridge certainly does have plenty of bars, but to talk about a "thriving bar scene" really gives the wrong impression. BR bars are generally filthy, dimly lit drink holes, where sullen, uncommunicative divorced men sit nursing their $1 beers (generally served with a free cockeroach)..
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This section states that 20+% of the population of BR is over 60. I was surprised to find out that this merits BR's designation as a retirement community of sorts. Is this percentage of oldsters then so different from neighbouring communities or the overall demographics of the US?
--Philopedia 18:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
