Talk:Bavaria

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[edit] Beer and Beergardens and more

I concur this article is misleading and very bias in several ways. There is no clear explanation (culture and history) between Franconians and Bavarians or let alone the Bohemians, Swabians, and Upper Palatinate. Apparently the Bohemians were expelled and resettled into Bavaria? Multiculturalism and co-existence (they really think everyone is catholic) what about Protestants and god forbid Hindus, or Moslems; woe auslander! Big issue in Munich, the Moslems want to build a big mosque, woe auslander! What about separation of state and church? The state collects levy for the church (the pope) is this true and worthy to be mentioned? What about the Gay King Louise II? Is anyone going into more detail? Ludwig and his lover, King Ludwig and Richard Wagner. Who cares about the Socialist party (SPD) the Pope party (CSU), and the Eco Communists (Green) in the state senate what about Bavaria and what it means?

I have been to a lot of different places such as Lohr, Wurzburg, Aschaffenburg, Straubing, Weiden, Regensburg, Munchen, Spitzing, Augsburg and a few more. Very bad service about everywhere – I really think they don’t know what service is-ever gone to a baker and order a bread at 1755HRS (5:55PM) in Bavaria? Ever experienced what it means to be a roach or a rat? How terribly strange this culture wants to be – Free State –shouldn’t it be translated as confederate state? Religious holidays and state mandated blue laws at this time and age. And do not forget 20% sales tax!

Please someone write something about ‘Beamten’ very strange creatures (strangely Nosferatu comes to mind very unsettling) I think they have been trained to be disagreeable and inapt – go to Lohr and park in the “sectioned” parking lot near the hospital and try to locate the machine for paying a ‘parkschine’. Notice all these Verboten! Earn yourself a ticket and very strange forms to be presented to your bank for payment. Imagine Chase or Wachovia Bank with an 'Überweisung’ – ever heard of it? Have you ever paid a ticket in Bavaria; world class slapstick in the Rathouse – No Credit Card, Debit Card, or checks – Du mus zalen überweisung!!! Wo sin wir den da! Why isn’t there a Tourist Section with Visiting Bavaria for Dummies?

Bavaria is very picturesque for a day, but someone please write about the backwardness, stupidity, and rudeness, plus the smoking in the restaurants – unbearable! Interestingly even the Italians complain about the foul stench in the “gastwirtschaften” and the Irish and the French called it disgusting. Anyone with a medical condition or traveling with children should be advised to avoid Bavaria or bring your own canned food and eat it in your vehicle. Ouch I have been too long in Bavaria I have started to complain which is the national pass time activity. Regards, Jay from Chicago/Sidney/Vancouver.

re: Jay yes, i know, it's (hopefully?) a troll, but... Why isn’t there a Tourist Section with Visiting Bavaria for Dummies? because this is an encyclopedia. simple as that. none of what you wrote about "culture" above isn't in any way particular to Bavaria, btw. It's also a nice joke to refer to the Greens as "eco-communists" since in Southern Germany they're rather conservative and centrist compared to other German states. Kato2k6 01:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

It's close to a wonder that this article does not mention "beer". Franconia is the area with the most breweries/km² and Bavarian "Biergärten" (beer gardens) are known and famous at least throughout the whole of Germany. Moreover, is there any other place where one usually drinks beer in 1 liter mugs? :)

Just wondering. --LostJedi 14:07, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

@Jay: Off-topic (kindoff): Why have you been to so many places in Bavaria if you hate it so much? Talk about spreading stereotypes and prejudice. Ts, ts ...

I am German (not Bavarian!!) and I lived in England and in the USA for some time. I could write a similarly malicious article especially about England, but also about the USA. I do not do it, because the real reason for seeing a country in your way is that you expect everybody in the world to be exactly as you and your country are. Fortunately everybody is different. - Besides your comment on smoking is no longer true. There are new anti-smoking laws in Germany and Bavaria's laws are the strictest: smoking in public places and restaurants is forbidden. And closing time of shops has been changed. They can be open up to 10:00 pm and they are discussing to allow shops to open 24 hours a day. No problem to buy some bread at 5:55pm or on Sundays. ---E.S. 9:55am 26 March 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.165.98.10 (talk) 08:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You better be careful with the BYO in beergardens. In the traditional ones it is ok, and there is also a judgment (maybe 10 years ago) wich says, that if the restaurant calls itself beergarden, there MUST be a place, where you can eat your own food, but usually this places are somewhere in the last corner and you have to get your beer by your own from the counter. Also in the big gardens of munic for exampel they dont like it much....

Beergarden is just a name. Actually, the beergarden is the outside section of a restaurant. But drinking your own, if you really want it, self-imported beer in public, go to a park: drinking alcohol in public is legal in germany! And 'bout smoking in restaurants: Thre's a federal law on its way which fobids it. Please sorry my english, I'm from Baden (The other state in Southgermany) Michael Haesle

[edit] Secession Rights?

I heard somewhere that Bavaria is the only state in Germany with the legal right to secede from the Federal Republic if it wants. Is this true? Rhesusman 23:00, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

No that is not true. Saxony (Sachsen) is a "Freistaat", too. And the definition of a "Freistaat" is to have the legal right to secede. But this right is of no significance. You cannot compare it to the legal right for Germany e.g. to secede from EU.

Do the Free Cities (Freistädte), Hamburg and Bremen, also have the right to secede? john k 18:04, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

According to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freistaat, the term "Freistaat" does not imply anything. It is just a traditional name for some of the Bundesländer (Sachsen, Bayern, Thüringen). The term "Freie Stadt" comes from a different, older tradition. Afaik, the German constitution does not handle any of the states in a special way when it comes to secession rights.141.30.217.10 20:16, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

"Free state" is not about secession but about being a democracy (up to 1918, Bavaria was a kingdom). In this respect, all Bundesländer are free states but most simply call themselves republics. The "Freistaat" article is wrong in assuming that these Free States have any particular relationship to the Federal Republic; such a thing is not allowed/allowable under the Grundgesetz which does not grant special rights to or impose special duties on any particular group of citizens unless these are regional by nature. E.g. schools are a matter of the Bundesländer, but each of them is equally independent, and the highest courts are a Federal matter, to which the citizens of all the Bundesländer are equally subject. -- Sanctacaris, 16.1.2006

Exactly. "Freistaat" is just an obsolete synonyme for "Republic" ("obsolete" in the sense that even many Germans don't understand it correctly). A "Freistaat" is not a state that has more freedoms in the federation compared to other federal states, it's just a state that guarantees certain freedoms to its citizens, i.e. a Republic. The translation to "Free State" is problematic because it has a slightly different meaning or at least additional meanings in English, but Bavaria really doesn't have more autonomy than any other federal state. ;) --62.180.188.21 23:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The expression "Freistaat" appeared for the first time after the abdication of the last bavarian king Ludwig III. in November 1918. It was used (and probably designed, too) by the first democratic head of state Kurt Eisner to describe the new political situation in the country (as already said before). Greetings from Bavaria ;-) 84.150.224.193 19:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

No German state has the right to secede from the Federal Republic, just as no one has the right to do away with the states as the basis of Germany's federal organisation. Free State, as others have said, simply means Republic and was very common a name between the wars. Since Bavaria is one of the few states that has suvived in its substance and most states nowadays simply call themselves "Land" - not "Republic", only Baden ever called itself Republic), the term does however connotate a higher awareness of one's own hisrorical continuity. This is why Saxony adopted the term in 1990. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 14:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

What everyone here forget´s to say is that Bavaria was never part of the federal republic germany. we voted against the constitution and the annexation through germany. we were made part of germany because the allied countries "forced" as to become part of germany. So in fact bavaria has his own constitution and so it normally is a own state under oppression of the german state and in that fact the UN give us the right to secede. Greetings from Bavaria;-) 84.146.242.146 19:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Our parliament, the Landtag voted against the Basic Law, but it also said that the Basic Law should come into force if the other Länder agree to it, and so they did.--Son sonson 15:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

"Secession Rights?"

As far as I know (not 100% sure) every German state has the right to split of Germany by popular vote —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.240.26 (talk) 19:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Error

It seems like the "Miscellaneous" category is listed twice...appears to be some error. ~ Dpr 01:54, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Politics

I think it should be noted in politics of bavaria, that one party (CSU) has had the majority since the elections in 1962, shouldn't it? Xorx77 16:55, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Shouldn't that be either Bundesländer or states? --Brion 05:36 Sep 19, 2002 (UTC)

I agree with you, I would be in favor of Bundesländer - User:Olivier.

Bavaria is not the correct name. This should be under Bayern. Lir 22:27 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

No, Bavaria is fine. This is an English encyclopedia. See http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayern for Bayern. -- JeLuF from Germany

bavaria is not fine, 'cos you do not translate names! -- User:Shadak from Germany 15:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.7.51.99 (talk)

well of course you don't translate Neustadt to Newtown - but Bavaria is the proper English name of Bayern —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.240.26 (talk) 19:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mann

Hmm...although Thomas Mann lived in Bavaria for much of his life, by the standards of the time, I suspect that he would not have been considered a Bavarian, being, rather, a north German from the old Hanseatic town of Lübeck. Unless anyone objects in a resonable period of time, I will remove him from the list of Bavarian authors. john 01:28 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Alright, taking Mann out. john 20:06 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Formation of the German Empire

This article implies that Bavaria was forced into the German Empire in 1866. The article on Ludwig II implies that Bavaria was a charter member in Dec 1870. The article on the German Empire seems to support the Ludwig II version by talking about a North German Federation, and only later becoming the German Empire.

Who is right?

You may work that out for yourself :-) : The German Empire was founded in 1871, after a hiatus of more than sixty years after the dissolution of the "Holy Roman Empire" where there was no Empire at all. -- Sanctacaris

Attempt for an explanation from a Bavarian: You might want to consider the situation for Bavaria after 1866. Bavaria lost the war with Austria against Prussia in 1866. In the Peace treaty there was one secret condition that Bavaria had to help Prussia when it would be attacked ("Schutz und Trutzbündnis"). Then in 1870 France declared war on Prussia and thus Bavaria had to become an ally of Prussia which ended with the complete knock out of France (for some time). After that when Bismarck wanted to form the German empire there was no power in the middle of Europe which could have helped Bavaria to fight for its freedom. Another point is that the king was more or less broke at this time because of his constructions of palaces (e.g. Neuschwanstein).

[edit] Culture Section Too Vague

It needs beefing up. Has huge generalities: eg. Bavaria similar to "Latin" countries (presumably European Latin, not Latin American!) in dress and eating habits (as a Southern Italian, I don't see this, but to a Northern German this distinction is obvious and clear, help the rest of us out here with more specifics). Is it a "Latin" cultural attribute to hold good food and drink in high esteem? Hmmm. There are a lot of pretty rough "redneck" areas in S. Italy that have a pretty crude cuisine, perhaps not too different from the kinds of dishes alluded to as being characteristic of Northern Germany. Interested in knowing if the contributors to this article are "insiders" to the culture (was it written by Bavarians?).--bobo 14:56, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

The whole ection is a cliché, that back in the 1950s might have been true, but nowadays is for sure obsolete. Of course there are more catholics than protestans in Bavaria due to historical reasons, but i can't see, that the majority is commitet to faith as the article indicates. Same thing with clothing. In fact, if you meet a traditionaly styled person at the oktoberfest, there's more than 1:1 chance, that it's not a bavarian. The food thing: well, historically it's ok to say, that catholic regions tend to enjoy life life and feats. But since faith not that big thing today, this trend has vanished, too. --Zinnmann 16:50, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Zinnman sums it up precisely: he suggests that the section reeks of cliché, confirming my suspicions. There is an obvious need for a complete reworking of the culture section. I hope that Zinnman or someone else takes up the task. As it stands, the culture section is in a sorry state. It lacks depth and critical acuity. Somebody please fix it!--bobo 12:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Answering the criticisms

As author of the section on culture, I wanted to address the issues raised here.

Certainly, in comparing Bavaria to Latin countries I had in mind France, Spain, Italy etc and not mixed cultures as in Latin America.

In my experience of daily life in Hessen (and elsewhere in much of Germany), it is typical for people of all social backgrounds and educational levels to dress very simply. When I previously lived in Bavaria I was concious that people gave a lot of attention to their appearance. Certainly it would be unusual to encounter a German woman outside of Bavaria who would devote the same attention as a native Bavarian to making herself appear sexy. It would be fair to point out that there remarks are subjective, but it is wrong to say that the remarks are based on outdated impressions (the 50s? in those days people were happy to have clothes on their backs..)

I'm not sure how to deal with the criticism of subjectivity. Perhaps if I worked in marketing for a cosmetics or clothing company, I would have statistics readily at hand. Frankly though, I'm surprised by the objection. Anyone who strolls down the Maximillianstrasse in Munich will notices that women (and men as well) dress very differently than, say, in downtown Braunschweig. The differing values attached to personal appearance remains valid even though (as I am told above) a person wearing Trachten at the Oktoberfest is as likely as not to be a disguised American ;-).

About food - here the criticism seems to agree with me that Bavarians put more care into and get more satisfaction out of eating than other Germans. This time the complaint is that I have unjustifiably elevated the cuisine of the Mezzogiorno. That could be true, but it's beside the point. The point of the article was to compare Bavarians with other Germans and not to compare them with other Europeans! Perhaps I should make that clearer in the text though.

Philopedia, I hadn't looked at this page in a very long time. It looks much better! Thanks for taking out the bit about "Latin" cuisines. Any stereotypes (even positive ones!) can get tiresome. Also, I found your retort quite amusing, but missing the point completely. Of COURSE I wasn't criticizing your "praise" of the "Mezzogiorno('s)" cuisine (by the way that term is itself quite out-dated and quite offensive even among Italians, e.g. a Milanese calling a Campanian "someone of the 'Mezzogiorno'" would probably get a swift ass-kicking). But of course, you knew quite well what the point of my criticism was, and I applaud you for artfully editing that section, as it is much improved. As you said, the point of that section was not to make comparisons between Bavarians and other Europeans, but to try to compare/contrast Bavarians with other Germans, and from the looks of it, I would say that you have your hands more than full with that undertaking alone. If I may add one last note, just a brief account of some first-hand experience: having spent time in Switzerland, Italy, Germany, Holland, Belgium, and France, it was a revelation crossing the German border from Switzerland. Maybe Germans were just having a really mirthful month when I was there ;-) but, from Heidelberg to Frankfurt to Aachen (have to plug it: my absolute favorite city in the world) the people were ALL exponentially friendlier, more down-to-earth, and dare-I-say more KIND in general than ANY other Europeans I spent time with. Talk about exploding stereotypes. And by the way, the LEAST friendly people I encountered were in the "Latin" countries (maybe they're stuck-up on account of their superior cuisine). As I recall, the old stereotypes went something like this: Latins=passionate,artistic/Teutons=cold,analytical. Who came up with these things? Bo-Bo Belsinger (talk) 11:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Finally, if someone thinks that religion has ceased to play a role in influencing social attitudes in Bavaria, I would invite them to try to find an all day school anywhere in the Free State. They don't exist! And why should they, when the prevalent (Bavarian Catholic supported) attitude is that women's horizons are properly limited to Kinder, Kirche, Kuche?

--Philopedia 02:07, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Philopedia, after reading your comments I'm not quite sure if we are talking about the same Bavaria. Actually i'm from Munich but i used to live in Stuttgart, Düsseldorf and Kassel too. On average there isn't that big differene in clothing and appearance. Since you mentioned Maximillianstraße (one of the most expensive and exclusive streets in Munich) I reckon that your your observations may be biased towards a specific clientel.

Regarding "Social behaviour" i don't think that the average Bavarian can be considered as overwhelming folksy. On the contrary: For non-locals it's quite hard to get into a talk in a pub. Totally different than e.g. in Cologne.

All day schools aren't the standard model throughout Germany. That's not a spefic Bavarian peculiarity. Since the PISA-debate of 2000 there have been numerous demands to establish more all day schools. An effort that is vigorously supported by most CSU politicians. Kinder, Kirche, Küche? =:-) Well, that IS the 50s. (Though - if i can trust my grandma - people used wear clothes back than. And if i can trust my grandpa, they then had a feeling of decency when it comes to your wardrobe. :-) --Zinnmann 13:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Zinnmann,

Thanks for your well formulated objections. I appreciate that your background and knowledge. I suspect our differing outlook is likely the result of differing approaches to engaging our environment. I am satisfied that we each had a fair chance to put our views forward and have them understood. Short of travelling together through Bavaria and exchanging observations I am think we have completed our due diligence and can in good conscience agree to disagree. The question remains: how to proceed with the article? You've been very considerate to defer changes up until now. Are there any specific changes you feel would do justice to both our views?

--Philopedia 04:49, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, i would suggest to render the historical context more prominent. It's true that Bavaria is traditionally very catholic and conservative, though the religious aspects really are fading away. That would allow to link politics, religion, and food to a common source. On the other hand i recommend to remove the appearance-text. It just isn't correct. Maybe we can replace it with a short notion of "Trachten" and the widespread but nevertheless misleading cliché of every bavaria hanging around in Lederhosen or Dirndl. Is that ok for you? Best wishes & happy new year! --Zinnmann 09:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I've been living in different locations in Germany and while there are certainly small local peculiarities, I don't think one can make distinctions like clothing style or care for appearance. I'm all for including obvious things like traditional clothing or local food, but more in a "trivia" kind of way and not as prominent (= first paragraph) as it is now. It's also a bit confusing for people outside of Germany since there really is no point of reference for them. Another problem I'd like to address is that Bayern consists of many cultural backgrounds. Not just the differnece between big cities and smaller towns, but I'd say there is a quite a difference between the Franconia region around Nuremberg, the Swabian part around Augsburg/Neu-Ulm and the Allgäu region in the south. I commend you for your work Philopedia, but I think you should focus more on describing historical/cultural "oddities" ;-) without the influence of personal experiences or stereotypes.

Maybe some notes from Germany (i.e. Bavaria ;) ) on this. As I read the part Many people in the northern part of Bavaria see themselves as Franconians and do therefore not like to be called "Bavarians". They have a separate dialect and don't wear typical Bavarian clothing. I started laughing. Oh, well, I live in Franconia for quite a while now, but pay numerous visits to the Bavarian capital of Munich. I also know some people in Passau whom I visit very often. First of all, it is true that a greater number Bavarian people is religious. Also true, most of them are considered conservative. Bavarians are also very fond of their country, and Franconians sometimes decline to be Bavarians, as well as Bavarians sometimes say Franconia is not Bavaria. ;)

What I want to emphasize here is the "greater number" and "most of them". Many things are changing in Germany, and also Bavaria gets mixed up with other cultures and global thinking. Especially towns like Munich, which do certainly have a certain distinct style, tend to open up. Munich is a modern business city where lots of non-Bavarian or "normal" Bavarian people live.

The culture section must therefore make clear that not all inhabitants are a "stereotype" Bavarian being religiously fanatic and wearing leather pants...

Especially the clothing section I don't understand. I was born and raised in Hesse, and I found no considerable change in clothing style between Hesse and Bavaria. Ok, you can argue, I now live in Franconia, where people don't dress like the "usual" Bavarian - but how comes I never spotted a difference in Nuremberg, Munich, Passau, Regensburg, the Allgäu, Berchtesgaden, ....? So please leave that out unless you find a citeable document proving that.

And distinguish between "Trachten" and "clothing" :)

Greetings from Nuremburg, LJ, April 20, 2006

I am a rookie when it comes to Bavarian culture, so it would be appreciated if there were an article about "Bavarian Culture" that not only compares and contrasts Bavarian and non-Bavarian but also describes in further detail what defines Bavarian culture.

DaDoc540 02:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Famous Bavarians

I will delete Wilhelm Roentgen from the list of Famous Bavarians. He was born in what is today Nordrhein-Westphalia. He lived and worked in many places around Germany and Europe. There is no reason to consider him as a Bavarian.

132.248.28.193 15:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)pedron

I've edited the whole thing and named it "There are many famous people, who were born in Bavaria (to-day's borders) or at least lived there most of their lives". Fulcher 10:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Edit on Religion

I take issue with the following recent text change in the Bavaria article:

Bavarians are typically very conservative Catholics, contrasting markedly with the traditionally protestant and increasingly secular majority in in the rest of Germany.

1) At least one other German state has a make up similar to Bavaria. Baden-Wurtemburg (completely Catholic and quite conservative). There are also other states with a very significant Catholic make up.

In fact, many locations in Germany at one time were either purely Catholic or purely Protestant (the population having adopted the perspective of the local ruler). This situation changed with the very large number of refugees were resettled following the second world war.

2) The perspective, shared by many US Americans, that Europe (including Germany) is a secular society is misleading. Although it is true that few Germans are regular churchgoers, the presumption that Germans are against religion is unquestionable erroneous. In fact, the religious/secular antagonism that so characteristic of the American social climate is completely absent here. Consider:

In Germany, there is no strong separation between church and state: Church leaders sit on media boards deciding programming, children are taught about religion in school, and religion is popular. More than 75% of Germans make a major financial contribution to a church. Churches are maintained in good condition, and there is a very general sentiment of respect for church and it's role in history.

I am therefore reverting the text. Perhaps you will see things otherwise. If so, I will look forward to learning why you hold those views.

--Philopedia 23:33, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear Philopedia, I am afraid that I have to correct your first point: The Rhineland is as ardently Catholic (with a capital C) as Bavaria, whereas Baden-Württemberg is mostly Protestant, in particular in the eastern part (Württemberg) but also in places such as Heidelberg, where I remember very clearly that in my class there were 3 catholics and 21 protestants! But certainly, Catholicism is a characteristic trait of Bavarian culture, even though its influence may be waning (which is difficult to ascertain or quantify anyway). -- Sanctacaris

Sanctacaris: actually, Baden-Wuerttemberg (and Heidelberg in particular) have almost equal-sized denominations with a slight Catholic majority. statistics for Heidelberg (see statistics link somewhere there) cite about 35% protestants vs about 40% catholics. the overall situation in Baden-Wuerttemberg is similar, something like 45:40 for Catholics in general. --Kato2k6 21:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Masashi Hamauzu

Would Masashi Hamauzu be considered a "Bavarian citizen" (and be included in a list of Bavarians) if he was born and spent his early years in Munich? He is not an ethnic German, of course. - Gilgamesh 06:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

-It said in the article that there is really no such thing as "Bavarian citizenship" in the legal sense. Because he was born in Bavaria, there is no reason he should not be considered a German citizen from Bavaria. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

Actually, there IS a Bavarian Citizenship Article (making e.g. everyone born in Bavaria a Bavarian citizen) under the Bavarian State Constitution (which is also legal under the federal constitution). Technically, the Bavarian government could issue separate passports (in addition to German passports) and such, such a law was just never enacted, since it's seen as not necessary --Kato2k6 21:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of Bayern

Can anyone enlighten me about this? Does anyone know anything about Bavaria and its standing two centuries ago, three, four? The plight of the people of Bavaria before settlement? I'd really be interested. I'd also like to know more about Bavaria joining Germany and Austria not being a part of it. I have friends from Bavaria who still speak of Bavaria as a repressed state, with Austro-Bavarian, or the Bavarian language having no official status because of the influential Low German etc. There seems to be no page telling of Bavaria's developments since early Germanic settlement. Celtmist 26-10-05

The name "Bayern" was not given by the roman. This is the name of there living nation since the fall of the roman empire - sorry for my english. But today there live three nations in Bayern. The Bayern in the south-east, Schwaben( in culture an language to Baden-Würtenberg and Schweiz) the Franken in the north. They all have a own language and culture, but Bayern its not like Germany a Federation. The non bavarian parts of bavaria are take by war with other german nations.

"Austro-Bavarian"? tell an Austrian he's Bavarian, or a Bavarian he's Austrian, and he'll laugh you in the face. The Bavarian language is a dialect of High German, and has no official status like all other German dialects. Low German is a minority language (and not a dialect of High German, which is the official German language) spoken on the North Sea coast only, and only has a "protected" status as such itself. --Kato2k6 22:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Social Behaviour

I am reinstating an entry comparing Bavarian social behaviour with behaviour elsewhere in Germany. This was a carefully considered entry, and the editor who removed it has declined a long standing invitation to discuss the point.

Wikipedia guidelines insist that sources be verifiable. In this context I should mention Geert Hofstede's book Cultures Consequences, which analysed several hundred thousand responses to questionaires on cultural attitudes world wide.

--Philopedia 01:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Bavaria got them through Napoleon. Fulcher 10:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SSR Bavaria

I read that Bavaria was an SSR for a short time after ww1 also what does free state mean I think it should be mentioned.

Have you noticed the blue colour of the words "free state"? This usually means you can click on them for more info. :-) What's an SSR? -- H005 19:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

SSR=Social sowjet republic --84.152.85.142 13:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

See Bavarian Soviet Republic - should be linked into the history section somewhere ~~between~~ around 1919 ~~and 1923~~. Agathoclea 14:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

See also History of Bavaria#Modern Times. Agathoclea 14:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Physicist vs. Physician

Under Miscellaneous, Albert Einstein is listed under the profession of "physician". I am not aware of his ever having been a practicing physician, so I can only suppose that the editor of that section was confused between physcian (someone practicing clinical medicine) and physicist (someone specializing in physics). Because Albert Einstein was of the latter, it would make more sense to place him under the category of "scientists". No?

(I went ahead and corrected this.)

[edit] "Sights" section

Hi! I was wondering what everyone else thinks of the "Sights" section. Personally, while the pictures are lovely, I don't believe the section adds much encyclopedic value to the article. The title should also be changed; "Sights" sounds somewhat like "Tourist attractions". I could be wrong and I know rather little about Bavaria, so I'm disinclined to make any ((more)) changes, especially without any input from others. I think perhaps some of these historic sites (which have their own articles) could be mentioned in the article and anyone with interest could see them by clicking on their wikilinks. Some of them, of course, can and even should be kept. Srose (talk) 18:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that on WP:FA, the "What is a Featured Article?" section states: It has images where appropriate, with succinct captions. I don't know that an entire gallery of images is appropriate, and this article could certainly aspire to FA status. The captions may also be inadequate. Srose (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

The article on the History of Bavaria has vitrually no images. Perhaps someone should copy a few from the gallery in this article: Bavaria#Historical_Buildings? Thanks for the help. --Grimhelm 17:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grüß Gott

71.35.222.170 translates the Bavarian greeting, "Grüß Gott", as "Great God". This however, would have to be "Groß Gott", not "Grüß Gott". A look at the main article provides various possible translations and transliterations, but unless "Great God" is a mispelling of "Greet God", there is no way it could be interpreted thus. Dank für das Verstehen! --Grimhelm 22:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

One of the recent editors recommended to "translate meaning not words". In that case, I'd recommend we give the translation as "Hello." -- The Photon 18:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

"Hello" seems a bit redundant and vague, as it is already described as a greeting. "God bless you" seems appropriate, although both a literal translation and a meaning could given. "Great God", however, seems to make no sense. --Grimhelm

Translating the words rather than the meaning is the failing of translation tools. Jemanden auf den Holzweg führen should always translate as leading someone up the gardenpath and not on the woodway. Obviously we could say misleading someone but that would loose the flavour of the expression. Anyway I placed a {{verror}} on the IP's talkpage. -- Agathoclea 12:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

as it is, no one has been posting a correct translation, just they way it's been explained to them. i agree that if your going to translate meaning not words, you should go with hello.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.35.222.170 (talk • contribs).

It already says greeting. Agathoclea 09:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Stoiber is almost gone: [1]

[edit] Rating

I was surprised to see that the article quality is only rated Start. To me, it is looking super, with lots of attractive and well chosen images to complement the thorough and well phrased written content. In fact, I was wondering whether (and how) to go about nominating it as a future Wikipedia article of the day. (Bavaria is still what most English speakers think of when they hear "Germany", causing the subject to generate disproportional interest.) Whether or not we ever see article-of-the-day publication, i think we still deserve praise for work well done. Weiter so!

--Philopedia 23:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Frei statt Bayern"

The term "Frei statt Bayern" is mostly used by franconians to demonstrate that franconia is a seperate region of germany and not really a part of bavaria (in a cultural way) - BloodyJack, 26 Dezember (Yes, this User is a real bavarian, sorry for any misspelling) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.11.122.2 (talk) 02:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pic assortement

Why are pics of Historical buildings overrepresented? That's really a start class article. 88.64.94.102 (talk) 18:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two map optional display

Hello Bavaria!!! I have something that may interest contributers for this page. In a nut shell, it allows the option to display two maps in your info box, one could be a close up of Bavaria, and another would be Bavaria in a wider European or EU, or German context. This is an example that was being discussed on Scotland's talk page (though I think they have rejected a two map option). Prior to now no one knew that you could have two maps displayed in the info box. For 'smallish' counties the benifits are easy to graps, an up-close view of the country, and a wider contextual visualisation of the country. Dydd da!!

PS: This is an example from the Scotland page, please do not be offended that I display the Scotland info box here. It is only ment as an example.

Scotland (English / Scots)
Alba (Gaelic)


Flag	Royal Coat of Arms

Motto: Nemo me impune lacessit  (Latin)
"No one provokes me with impunity"
"Cha togar m' fhearg gun dìoladh"   (Scottish Gaelic)
'"Wha daur meddle wi me?"'  (Scots)¹

Anthem: (Multiple unofficial anthems)