Talk:Battles of Saratoga

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Before any structural changes, perhaps the perspective could be balanced between American and British, because it seems that the British is exaggerated at the expense of American history. Now Americans and Brits have gotten along for 200 years. Lets insure our most significant battle is well recorded and an equal representation. Possibly the term Revolutionist could simply be replaced by Americans to make it less like rowdy colonist and more like freedom fighters.

Contents

[edit] Historical Revisionism or just forgotten history?

I agree that the story could be more balanced by including more on the German, Indian and Tory contingents, and the American Militias involved. The Germans were almost 60% of the troops involved. A seemingly forgotten fact is that the British used almost 30,000 German troops and only about 38,000 British troops in the revolutionary war. There should also be a much more detailed account of what Milita groups were involved and where they came from and what they did. Originally this section didn't even have anything on the important role played by the Tyron county militia in the Battle of Oriskany. There is also almost no mention of the Indians involved who served as significant British auxilaries. Their involvement in this and more battles seems to be a taboo subject. The Battle of Oriskany, Wyoming Valley Massacre, Cherry Valley Massacre, Stockbridge Massacre and continued depradations on settlers in New York and Pennsylvania directly led Washington to order in 1779 the Sullivan Expedition which essentially drove most of the Iroquois out of New York into Canada. This was the major action by American forces in 1779. After we get the basics right it might be worth worrying about the British.

Cheers;

D'lin 19:28, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Structure of the Saratoga articles

It's my intention to change the structure of this article. This will take a number of steps, and I'd like you to read the current page and changes in terms of the outline of where I'm going. When I get through I hope to have the following structure:

Saratoga Campaign (Strategy, Stanwix, Saratogo, and analysis}.
Battle of Saratoga (general final events, and surrender)
Battle of Freeman's Farm - Finished short Article
Battle of Bemis Heights - finished short Article

Updated major biographies (Fraser, Morgan, Poor, Learned) and some related articles. Still need to update Arnold and Gates. We also need biographies on Schuyler and Lincoln as well as other minor characters. But, its making progresss. The Saratoga Campign has been expanded to describe St. Ledger's advance, but now I need more biographies, Fort Stanwix, and Oriskany entries.

In the meantime I may scatter stubs, and leave open links or redundent material that you'd rather see closed. Feel free, of course, to complete any of them with an article. :-)

I'll post status on this page from time to time.

Anyone who wants to discuss this mini-project, please use my talk page. - Lou I 16:34 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I've finally gotten at least an outline started for the Burgoyne expedition part of the Saratoga Campaign article. Still working back and forth betwen individual battle accounts, biographies, and major articles. Thanks for you patience. Lou I 21:52, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This page needs an update. Some officers (Burgoyne) were immediately sent home, but most troops remained prisoners for years. I plan to report this in an article labelled the Convention Army, but a correction here would be welcome in the interim, Lou I
I have finally finished the Saratoga Campaign article. Incuding related articles it only took six months. I still have some work to due on Stanwix and Hubbarton battles and scattered biographies. I may make some minor changes to other battles to align with the campaign article, before updating this article. Lou I 10:14, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Great work on all these articles Lou. (I realize I'm writing this more than two years later, so you may not even be watching this page any longer.)

There is one major problem that has developed with this structure over the years since you initially wrote the articles. The issue is that of "forking". Suppose that a person wants to add or correct something about the Battle of Bemis Heights. There are several possibilities: he or she might edit the Saratoga campaign article, or the Battle of Saratoga article, or the Battle of Bemis Heights article. That person might not edit all three articles, and may not even understand how the three articles relate. Multiply this by the many editors who contribute to the articles over the years, and you get diverging accounts of the battles and expeditions.

One way to avoid this is with "Wikipedia:Summary style." Make it clear when the "see main article" notice is used that what follows is a summary of that topic, and that additional information should be added to the "main" article, in order to avoid forking.

Additionally, there may not be a need for a "Battle of Saratoga" article at all, since all that information can be divided between the "Saratoga campaign" article and well as the two battle articles. This will prevent confusion and further forking.

Because my time is limited, I have no intention of making these changes myself. I hope someone reading this will attempt to reorganize the Saratoga articles to make them easier to understand and edit, and to prevent forking. The fact that I must add this notice to four or five different articles is an illustration of the problem. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 19:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the articles but I am still unclear on why there is a Battle of Saratoga and Saratoga campaign. IMO the articles cover much of the same ground and should be merged. P.S. Since the articles are pretty complete I would hate to mar them with a vote on merger template. Americasroof 17:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I take it you are addressing Lou, since you agree with me that "Battle of Saratoga" and "Saratoga campaign" are redundant. I don't think Lou watches this page anymore, however. If you want to do a merger, I'd say go for it, since it seems few people are paying attention, and if you do it right, they'll be happy you took the initiative, if they ever notice at all. "Saratoga campaign" should be the main article, with summary sections on the two battles. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 13:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kosciuszko

I will try to add something about Kosciuszko's fortification impact. In the opinion of some of the contemporaries, it was crucial for American victory; yet it is not even mentioned in the article.

Since there are no objections, within a week I will add something about Kosciuszko involvement in battle of Saratoga Szopen 16:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
It's very important. There is a whole set of monuments to Kosiuszko as you enter the park. I'm kicking myself for not taking the photos right away thinking there would be more later on. But it's a one way road. Americasroof 18:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] May 2006

In the first paragraph in the Background section, there is a reference to "Putnam's forces." Putnam is not introduced prior to the reference so it reads a bit oddly and should be fixed.

[edit] Points of interest Section

In the last paragraph of the "Points of Interest" section of the Battle of Saratoga, it states:

"It is said that on the Battle of Saratoga Historical site there is a statue of a single leg with no caption. Purportedly this represents the response Benedict Arnold (wounded in the leg in Quebec and Saratoga) got when he asked a British officer what the Americans would do if he were captured: "They would cut your leg off and bury it with full military honors for your work at Quebec and Saratoga. The rest of you they would hang."

I believe there is an eror in stating that Arnold asked the British officer a hypothetical question about what "the Americans would do if he were "captured" -- since he is asking a British officer, and the logical answer from that officer is that "they" -- certainly implying the British forces --would have "cut your leg off and bury it with full military honors for your work at Quebec and Saratoga. The rest of you they would hang." I take that to mean that the British officer would respect Arnold's military prowess, in the honorable way that officers of even opposing armies would acknowledged such things in the 18th century, but that the British government would hang him, along with other American Revolutionary political and miliray leaders, for treason.

I can't imagine that the Briritish officer would assume that would be any reason for the Americans to "capture" Arnold, or that the Americans would have any reason to hang Arnold -- at least not at this juncture in the war, when he was still an active General on the side of the Continental Army, and was considered to be somewhat of a war hero (by everyone except Gen. Gates, perhaps) for his military successes in Quebec and Saratoga.

This is my first attempt at making an update/correction on Wikipedia. I hope it is up to your standards and proper procedures...!

You did well. (Just be sure to sign your discussion page posts by typing "~~~~" at the end of your last paragraph, so people know who wrote it.) Probably the story about the British officer talking to Arnold, if true, dates from after Arnold's treason, long after Saratoga, when he was on the same side as the British. The British officer is saying that, if the Americans recapture Arnold (as sometimes happened), they'd hang him for treason but honor the leg. Sounds like a bogus quote to me, and it needs a source. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 01:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Kevin, small error. Its an american officer saying that.

Furthermore the article on Benedict Arnold also includes this quote but in a slightly different words, therefore one of them (possibly both) are wrong. We need to check for consistency here. 02:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.97.171 (talk)

[edit] POV in Points of Interest

I removed this paragraph:

It is interesting to note that the Battle of Saratoga was the first time that both powers had a sizeable army on a battlefield at the same time. Most of the fighting done prior to Saratoga leaned heavily on "guerilla warfare" (essentially terrorism) tactics on the part of the Revolutionaries. Moreover, the Battle of Saratoga would serve as the first major army-to-army clash. It was the first battle America had won without surprising British forces (See: Battle of Trenton) and it helped convince the French monarchy that they could hurt the British significantly by helping the Americans.

This was an inaccurate unsourced stream of consciousness. The Americans won the Siege of Boston which was the last big battle in New England and Saratoga marked the failed British initiative to retake New England. The Battle of Long Island was the biggest battle in the conflict. Americasroof 22:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe that you will find there where 14,000 allied on the field of Yorktown and a French fleet anchored close by, and probably the largest battle of the war. Tirronan (talk) 02:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Errors

There are some numerical errors in this article... I don't know the exact figures, so I can't correct them. 129.237.168.103 19:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction between this article on the one on Burgoyne

The Aftermath section has this sentence: "Burgoyne returned to England as a hero--he was a prominent leader in London society." The article on Burgoyne states: "Following Saratoga, the indignation in Britain against Burgoyne was great. He returned at once, with the leave of the American general, to defend his conduct and demanded but never obtained a trial. He was deprived of his regiment and a governorship which he held."

Would some expert please resolve the contracdiction between the articles? I suspected vandalism in the Saratoga article, but the text has been around for a while.

Joconnor (talk) 06:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edits and merging

In response to the posts above about the structure of the articles, I have merged the Freeman's Farm and Bemis Heights articles into this single article. Vidor (talk) 00:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers, Statistics, and outright lies

I'm not sure what is going on with the numbers here but this much I am sure of, there were never 20,000 continentals on that battlefield and I rather suspect that the Brits were down to 5,000 or so effectives and pretty badly outnumbered. However British Battles is not a website of great authority and therefore should not be used as a source, unsourced additions to a battle of this importance is to be highly discouraged. please be aware that I have added this article to my watch list. Tirronan (talk) 00:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)