Talk:Battles of Narvik

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Battles of Narvik was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: September 5, 2006

I've applied some changes - according to the first line, it is about naval battles, so I excluded non-British allies out of infoboxes. Maybe there should be added also events of April 9 - a combat of Norwegian coastal battleships HNoMS Norge and HNoMS Eidsvold? And maybe it should be split in two articles, on naval and land operations? (as is on Polish wiki). There weren't 5 German destroyers seriously damaged in the first battle, but barely one. Pibwl [[User_talk:Pibwl|talk]] 00:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

It would be better if these battles got one article each. Now it is a bit confusing.Inge 09:48, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
In Norway, (and probably Germany too) the "Battle of Narvik" usually refer to the land campaign as well. To refer to the battle as a naval operation is to narrow down the subject from a two month battle to a two day event. Epecially the invasion of the city of Narwik the 28th of May by the French Foreign legion and a batallion from the Norwegian 15th Regiment is more famous than the two naval battles. Haraldgroven 14:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Harald. Inge 19:30, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] This article needs some serious work

First of all as noted above the TWO MONTH land battle is of more importance to several of the countries involved and deserves better covarage. Even better than the two days of naval battles. In Norway the battle Oberiko has forced me to call "The naval battle before the one known as the first naval battle of Narvik" is known as the first naval battle of Narvik. I understand that in the "British world" the only events worth mentioning are the ones were the British played a central role. Of course it is known as the first battle of Narvik in British naval records and history, it was the first one they participated in. I just want to point out that one should use a great deal of sensitivity when dealing whith a countrys war history and that the english language wikipedia is not a wikipedia written spesifically for the British and Americans but is an international encyclopedia written in the english language. So it seems a bit silly to call a battle the first battle when 343 men lost their lives in a different one just the day before. Inge 01:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

This page should probably be split up into three (four?) separate articles and turned into a disambiguation. As it is, it's rather messy. Kirill Lokshin 01:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes! I agree, but the issue of whether the first or the second battle should have the article title The first naval battle of Narvik should be resolved before a move. Inge 02:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Why not just go with Battle of Narvik (9 April 1940) and Battle of Narvik (10 April 1940)? Kirill Lokshin 02:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
That seems like a good suggestion to me. I just want to avoid an editfight when someone still tries to push the POV that 10 April was before the 9 April. Inge 11:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed new structure

First of all in order to remove British POV It should be one article called "Battle of Narvik" with overview of the whole campaign. Then links to sub sections called (IMHO):

  • German invasion of Narvik
  • Figthing at Bjørnfjell
  • First Naval Battle of Narvik
  • Second Naval Battle of Narvik
  • Battle of Gratangen
  • Narvik's campaign northern front (better name)?
  • Polish expeditionary force at Ankenes May-June
  • Bjerkvik bombardment May 16
  • Allied reconquest of Narvik May 28th
  • German Bombing of Narvik, june 1940

H@r@ld 08:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe these could be subsections in the article itself first. Then moved to separate articles when the content in each of them merits it. Inge 13:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps a nore encompassing article title like "Battle for Narvik" then the first and second Battles can retain their titles without confusion. GraemeLeggett 13:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I note that "the Norway Campaign" is an encompassing title for the British activities.GraemeLeggett 15:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
The Norwegian Campaign is our name for the entire conflict in Norway at the start of WWII though. From the UK's point of view, there are two distinct actions in Narvik. The naval battles where they defeated the ten German destroyers, and the later land campaign in Northern Norway (which is also quite lacking in the parent article). Oberiko 15:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The worst faults in this article

What are the points that stick the most out as needing improvement?

  • IMHO:
    • The sections on the land battle.
    • The background and reasons why Narvik became a major battle scene.
    • Reaching agreement over what to call the different naval battles.

Inge 12:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA nominee

Nice article. Coming along nicely. Two major issues: serious lack of references (maybe only three were used?), no inline references, and Image:Narvik.jpg needs its image tag updated. Some spellcheck and grammar checks wouldn't hurt either. (FYI - The Google toolbar has a spellchecker)--Esprit15d 15:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

It needs footnotes. Renominate it when you have footnotes. --GoOdCoNtEnT 06:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I have attemted to convert the references to footnotes, but it would be apreciated if someone else could look over them and maybe add some. Inge 11:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA nomination

Although this article has improved since its last GA nomination, it still has a serious shortage of line citations. Current footnotes are not in standard format and fail to provide site access dates. Some line citations to dead-tree-type references would certainly help. Too many one line paragraphs. Currently a b-class article that could definitely get better, but I suggest two or three months of work before renominating again. Please take this as encouragement: the page reflects a lot of work so far. Durova 17:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] U-64

Reports I've seen state that U-64 was bombed and sunk after the destroyers had been dealt with, not before as the article states. I'll make the alteration unless there's evidence to the contrary. Uboat.com dosn't specify the sequence. Folks at 137 21:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hermann Kunne

There is one mistake: Hermann Kunne is listed twice in a section about landings on 9 April. probably the first mention is correct, while the second should be Thiele or Schmitt, but I don't know which one. Pibwl ←« 00:50, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I've found in a Russian book on German destroyers, that it was Schmitt. Pibwl ←« 11:27, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Eidsvold class costal defence cruiser photo.jpg

Image:Eidsvold class costal defence cruiser photo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV in section on German Invasion

The account of the naval battle between German and Norwegian forces seem POV to me. Spcifically I'm referring to the lines "At the same time, the gun crews of both the 21 cm guns and the 15 cm guns aboard Eidsvold kept the German destroyer in their sights, at point-blank range" and "The Germans, afraid that Eidsvold might ram the destroyer, fired two or four torpedoes..." These lines make it seem that the Norwegians provoked an unecessary battle. In Norway a common view is that the German flare was a signal to fire, while the Norwegians were still keeping the truce while waiting for the negotiator to reach his ship.
Both these views are POV hoewever, so my suggestion is that the article simply state the facts of the battle, without ascribing motives to either side. --MaxMad (talk) 10:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)