Talk:Battle of the Somme

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Contents

[edit] unlabeled entries

where did it start? which countries fought in this battle? how long did it last? how many casualties were there? how many souldiers were killed?

[edit] NPOV

This article appears to be written from a thoroughly british viewpoint.68.4.61.113 05:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Still does as of today, it reads like only the Brits were there. 193.132.242.1 13:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Two points. Firstly the article often uses (and is pretty much forced to use) the term "British" as it was used at the time, ie the term includes ANZAC, Canadian and Indian forces etc - because the sources do. If you substitute the word "British" for a modern alternative like "Commonwealth" it is not quite so British in its outlook. Secondly it is hard to get round the systematic bias of the prevalance of British (in the WWI sense) editors on the English version of Wikipedia, particularly on an event that had such a massive impact on the British empire countries. The French and German sides of the story need to be brought up to standard as soon as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LiamE (talk • contribs) 16:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Obscure paragraph

The following paragraph is unnecessarily obscure:

The tactics of tank warfare were understandably in their infancy but Rawlinson made the mistake of leaving gaps in their barrage through which the tanks could operate. As the tanks were directed against defensive strongpoints, the supporting infantry who got ahead of the tanks often faced fresh German garrisons. It was also possibly a tactical error for Rawlinson to distribute his tanks across the front rather than to concentrate them against a single point.

For example,

  • "made the mistake" -- It may be a mistake to leave a gap in a barrage. But what is the alternative? How otherwise would you avoid hitting the tanks with your own artillery? This sentence is too vague and speculative. Please give some reason why it was a "mistake."
  • "As the tanks were directed against defensive strongpoints . . ." How does being directed against defensive strongpoints affect whether or not the supporting infantry gets ahead of the slow, slow tanks? This sentence is illogical, in my opinion.
  • "It was also possibly a tactical error . . ." Is there a "best practices" rule that it is better to 1) concentrate rather than 2) distribute? This sentence is too vague, in my opinion. ---Rednblu | Talk 22:45, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Firstly, I was trying to summarise Flers-Courcelette in the main article and would eventually go into detail in the Battle of Flers-Courcelette.
  • "gap in the barrage" -- the barrage (should) fall ahead of the attack, not on the attacking infantry and tanks. Leaving the gaps meant that when the tanks failed to arrive, the infantry on these sectors encountered un-bombarded defences. The purpose of the gaps was to leave the ground undisturbed, giving the tanks good going.
  • "directed against defensive strongpoints" -- coupled with the gaps in the barrage, the infantry were doubly-damned
  • "tactical error" -- at the time there were no best practices. It's a comment on the development of Blitzkrieg tactics when tanks were concentrated in a "Schwerpunkt". "Possibly" may not be a good word but this wasn't really the point to discuss the evolution of tank tactics.
I'll expand on it when I get around to writing the 15 September article. I'm happy to drop this paragraph until then. Geoff/Gsl 23:22, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Great explanations. Great page! Contratulations. ---Rednblu | Talk 00:28, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've dropped the paragraph, replaced with more battle detail. I'll revisit the question of tactics when I do the Flers-Courcelette article when I can do a proper explanation. Thanks for pointing out the problem. Geoff/Gsl 06:28, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Lord of the rings" author J. R. R. Tolkien were one of the men present in this battle (this is mentioned on his page). He brought little notebooks and made descriptions of what he called "hell". I believe these battles were his inspiration for the worst scenes in LOTR. How could we incorporate this into the page? --Brandnewbrain 26 Dec 2004

I was just reading for the first time earlier today looking for Tolkien in it as i knew that he had been present in the battle. Perhaps == Noteable persons at Somme == ?, there are bound to be more. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 10:25, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
List of people that were at somme (their articles link to it): J.R.R. Tolkien, Otto Dix, Robert Graves, George Butterworth, Keith Park, John Keiller MacKay, Walter Tull (i only made it that far). -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 10:36, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
Should someone add the 'notable people' heading or has it been decided against? Ka5hmir 10:07, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Small-scale map in the introduction

Hello. Thanks a lot to the authors of this article -- good work. It is not clear to me where, exactly, in France this battle took place. Can we have a small-scale map (showing all of France or maybe even all of Europe) near the beginning to show the general location? Actually a lot of the military history articles could benefit from small-scale maps to give context. 64.48.193.24 20:17, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I think you mean a "large scale" map. It would be nice to have. Geoff/Gsl 09:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Difference in Number of Casualties

I don't understand why the estimates of German casualties vary so much. If the official documents from germany say it was about 160,000 dead, and the british historian who said 680,000 was discredited then why would they have the estimate go from 180,000 to 680,000?

Casualties include missing, prisoners and wounded, as well as killed in action and died of wounds. The category of "wounded" is particularly hard to quantify. The figure "465,000 to 600,000" comes from Sheffield's The Somme:
"Recent historians have disagreed on the total of German losses. Holger Herwig gives a precise 465,000, while Richard Holmes argues 'it is harder to place them lower than 600,000'."
The official German figure is "about 500,000" for the period starting 1 July so that doesn't include losses during the preliminary bombardment. The figure of 180,000 comes from the British War Office Statistics of the Military Effort of the British Empire but it doesn't seem anyone, including the statisticians who compiled it, believe it to be accurate. Geoff/Gsl 04:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discrepency in Ratio of Casualties

The casualty figures seem indeed biased, especially regarding the relative percentage of the dead and missing as a share of total losses. According to the article, that ratio for the Germans forces would be nearly 38%, as opposed to only about 23.5% for the Anglo-French. Such a great discrepency contradicts the belligerents' official statistics for the Great War, as quoted in World_War_I_casualties: there it is about 30-33% for both sides.

This appears suspicious. Why should the Germans, who were not usually the attackers at the Somme in 1916, have suffered so many more KIA and MIA that the Allies?

Textor 05:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

There is of course dispute about casualty figures but do remember that much of battles like the Somme consisted of German counterattacks (it was actually Falkenhayn's policy to try to regain every scrap of ground lost). See Terraine's famous essay "The True Texture of the Somme" (which sadly I don't have to hand) in which he counted about sixty or seventy German counterattacks - many of them doubtless minor but which must have resulted in many German deaths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.40.200.252 (talk) 14:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anglo-centric bias

This article smacks of Anglo-centric bias, written by the British, for the British. This needs a more neutral tone. We see the losses of French here were also huge...and of course the German. Not only that, we are told what the British 'back home' thought (but not the French, who lived there). Shame, shame that one would be so self-congratulatory as to give this article plaudits, when in fact the whole thing needs to be written in a more neutral tone. That is, the article should not assume the reader is from the UK. What if the reader were American? Do they see this as "British" history or as "World" history? World history, indeed.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 11:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

So change it then. What are your specific concerns? If you bemoan the fact there is little info from the German POV or French POV, that is because few sources exist in English - you're certainly welcome to add any useful info on the German or French experience that you may have. Your edit to the intro, however, is awkward and unsourced. I doubt the battle is as big in collective conscience as the Somme is in England, or Verdun is in France. Can you provide a quote?Michael Dorosh 13:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I've changed the article to hopefully reflect why the article seems Anglo-centric. The battle is, rightly or wrongly, the battle that has come to typify the World War I experience of Britain (in Canada it is Vimy, in Australia, Gallipoli). Incidentally, I'm not British and I think the article reads fine as is, but would certainly like to see some German and French info thrown in for balance. But if I didn't have that to offer, I wouldn't simply complain from the sidelines. Looking forward to your contributions.Michael Dorosh 13:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Combatants

Since we lump the various German posessions at the time into the 'German Empire', would it not be more appropriate to list 'British Empire, France' as the combatants on the Allied side? — ceejayoz talk 03:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You are quite right. I have edited the list to reflect that in the First World War the British Empire was fully intact in the sense that all the Dominions and Colonies, although some had limited self-government, remained under the authority of Britain and fought under the Union Flag; even if a Dominion ensign was carried in some places at some time, e.g. Vimy Ridge. Contrary to the presentation of current historical revisionists who identify the Dominions as "allies", all the soldiers of the British Empire were "British" and the more appropriate differentiation would be the "nationalies" of the Dominions with "England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales". Indeed,the "Canadian Corps" was two-thirds UK born men. The Commonwealth did not yet exist and the Statute of Westminster was two decades away.--pidd 15:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, and of the Australians who fought in WW1 a third were British-born and another third second generation (ie. had British parents). They regarded themselves as "British" in a way subsequent generations didn't.

[edit] Chicago Tribune

I think we should delete the last paragraph as it gives a grossly exaggerated amount of men that were shot at dawn. Any thoughts.

  • Firstly, please sign your comments with four tildes. (~~~~) Secondly, if you have a better source, I'd go ahead and put it in the article, but don't forget to footnote it.Michael Dorosh 17:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"Consciencious Objectors"

The 386 number is incorrect, there weren't 386 soldiers executed for cowardice/consciencious objection, Im not even sure if Britain executed that many soldiers in the war period, and besides I don't see what the particular number of those executed in the entire war has to do with this battle, there surely weren't 386 people executed during the battle of the Somme. I opt to remove it.

Anomaly 54 17:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New external link

I've just added a link to a new feature on our NZHistory.net.nz website. The feature was written by a professional historian and includes a number of images never before published.

I hope this is acceptable - please let me know if there is a problem with my adding this.

Jamie Mackay 20:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is a wikipedia featured article!!!

I am surprised that wikepedia would elevate this article to featured article status. It probably serves well as a beginner's guide to the Somme with it's comprehensive dating and collection of facts. However the real history; the analysis and conlcusions are very poor. The fundamental conclusion of the piece is that the Somme was a success for the British. This beggars belief for anyone woth a smattering of knowledge of the Somme, the rest of WW1 and C.20th combat. This is not the place for a complete counter-thesis, but it is important that some elementary failings in the article are pointed out.

  1. in para. 2 the battle "is best remembered therefor (sic) it's first day, 1 July 1916, on which the British suffered 57,470 casualties". By section 7 (Debut of the Tank) however, "the battle is chiefly remembered today as the debut of the tank.". I would suggest the former is true but it certainly can't be both!
  2. The very same introductory paragraph states that "By the end of the battle, the British had learnt many lessons in modern warfare while the Germans had suffered irreplaceable losses." What happened to marshalling the evidence and THEN drawing conlusions? Furthermore the assertion is vacuous nonsense. Why did the British blearn lessons but the Germans didn't? Why would German losses (from apopulation of 70 million) be less replaceable than British (pop. 50 million)?
  3. It may be historically true that the British Official historian stated that, "It is not too much to claim that the foundations of the final victory on the Western Front were laid by the Somme offensive of 1916." But it doesn't make his the statement true. Surely there is more to history than quoting the participants?
  4. The section on the debut of the tank is accurate in detail but flawed in its basic thrust. Apparently, "The British had high hopes that this secret weapon would break the deadlock of the trenches"? Which British? Not the High Command who had little or no interest in new technology such as tanks. Those British who did support tanks had advised that the tank NOT be thrown in hastily into the unsuitable Somme battle. Haig threw them in for political reasons and thus threw away the potential surprise effect. The big story in the inrtoduction of tanks is not their use but their mis-use
  5. The last paragraph in the 'Tanks' section appears to have nothing to do with tanks but is perhaps part of the chronological sequence.
  6. The conclusion that "the Battle of the Somme delivered more benefits for the British than it did for the Germans" may be true but its is entirely unsupported by the evidence of thsi article. It should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pmurnion (talk • contribs) 00:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

German losses were less sustainable (despite Germany having a larger population than the UK) because Germany was also having to fight against the French on the rest of the Western Front, and Russia in the East (where the Germans deployed about half as much strength as they had deployed in the West). Surely this is obvious. Plus, as has been pointed out many times by Gary Sheffield et al, the Germans were losing trained troops whereas the British weren't.

While German losses were less sustainable the point that Germany lost trained troops while Britain lost green ones is flawed at best. Why did Germany have trained troops at the Somme? Because they didn't have theirs massacred in the opening states of the war while the BEF was put out of action by the end of 1914 Britain being mainly restricted to defense in 1915 and the first half of 1916. One would also assume that when Germany still had trained troops at quiet locations while fighting at Verdun, against Russia and invading Romania Germany obviously didn't depend on those soldiers for their own major operations. They actually pulled troops out of there to fight in other theatres.

Germany managed to hold out at the Somme against large odds while scoring victories in the east conquering Romania and inflicting serious defeats on Russia that destabilized the Tsarist empire further. The problems that plagued germany in 1917 were not primarily manpower (having freed up tons and tons of veteran soldiers from the Eastern Front) but supply and logistics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.13.90.39 (talk) 13:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

"Germany lost trained troops while Britain lost green ones is flawed at best" - no, it's a statement of fact. Germany, in common with continental countries, had more trained troops to start with as she had peacetime conscription. Hence the casualties of 1914-15 hit the BEF harder, but what on earth else was Britain supposed to do? Not fight? Occasionally one sees arguments along the lines of "Britain should have husbanded her resources for two years and built up a large, trained army" but this tends to come from the criticise-for-the-sake of criticism muckrakers. Standing aside in this way wasn't feasible - and incidentally Britain wasn't "on the defensive" in 1915 - there were various offensives, including Neuve Chapelle, Aubers Ridge and Loos - latter battle was quite big. Victories in the east in 1916? Well, there was Lake Narotch, and the Germans made a contribution to defeating the Brusilov Offensive. There were a few German divisions in Romania but most of the troops in that campaign were Turkish, Bulgarian and AH, not German. Saying "German conquest of Romania proves the failure of the Somme" is as daft as saying "Hitler was able to transfer a few divisions to Italy in 1943, so that proves the Soviets failed at Stalingrad and Kursk"! Bottom line: German High Command was always desperately scrabbling round for a handful of divisions that could plug some hole or other (and to be fair they did a very good job of it), as the recent Foley biog of Falkenhayn brings out. German shortage of manpower in 1917-18 is amply attested in German accounts, eg. Holger Herwig. Germany freed up some troops when Eastern Front ended, but not as many as is sometimes thought - large garrisons were left behind in the Ukraine etc, and those who did come west were often disaffected by Bolshevik propaganda and spread poor morale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 (talk) 17:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] its gone

Someonoe has just deleted it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.6.232.228 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lacking sources for casualties data

Like said in title, the casualties are often disputed, the source for the location of that data should be quoted. GBobly 23:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] featured?

I'm confused - is this featured or not? This edit added the featured template Jooler 00:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

That's an edit by the FAC director, so yes it's featured.LuciferMorgan 00:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I got confused, but I don't think the NPOV tag is appropriate. The IP who added the tag didn't elaborate on his concerns. Jooler 00:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hawthorne Ridge Mine

According to this article, "Zero-hour for the Battle of the Somme was 7:30 a.m. on 1 July 1916. Ten minutes prior to this, at 7:20 a.m., the mine beneath Hawthorn Ridge Redoubt was detonated by an officer. The reason he detonated the mine earlier than was planned is unknown." However, the Hawthorn Ridge Redoubt article gives an explanation for this. Which article is correct? Seleucus 00:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Auto peer review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Mal 03:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] == error in prelude? ==

The last paragraph of the prelude states that the Englisch had with air superiority with "... ten squadrons and 185 aircraft against the 129 German squadrons". Shouldn't this be "...against the 129 German planes"? (In ?? squadrons). As I have no sources to check the numbers I hesitate to change it myself. Pukkie 09:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel Words

I feel the Conclusions section is full of weasel words. I don’t think it’s appropriate for the author to simply label viewpoints with which they don’t agree as “revisionist”. Clearly some of the figures and viewpoints can indeed be discounted, but much of the time few definitive conclusions can really be drawn. It all adds up to a thoroughly POV end to the article, which is a shame. --62.173.76.218 11:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. A point-counterpoint format can effectively rebut contraversial statements without the need for weasel words. However, point-counterpoint formats do require extensive citation. I have removed the POV wordings and introduced a citations flag. Any individual who can help add to the citation for this section would be greatly appreciated. Djma12 20:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

"revisionist" is a better description of the Terraine/Sheffield school than the really poisonous and belittling "apologist".

[edit] F. Scott Fitzgerald "Tender is the Night"

Scott Fitzgerald writes very nicely about the Battle of the Somme in his book "Tender Is The Night" (Book I, Chapter XII [1])

"Dick turned the corner of the traverse and continued along the trench walking on the duckboard. He came to a periscope, looked through it a moment; then he got up on the step and peered over the parapet. In front of him beneath a dingy sky was Beaumont Hamel; to his left the tragic hill of Thiepval. Dick stared at them through his field glasses, his throat straining with sadness... ...“This land here cost twenty lives a foot that summer,” he said to Rosemary... ...“See that little stream—we could walk to it in two minutes. It took the British a month to walk to it—a whole empire walking very slowly, dying in front and pushing forward behind. And another empire walked very slowly backward a few inches a day, leaving the dead like a million bloody rugs. No Europeans will ever do that again in this generation.”"

I think it is worth to put it into the main article. What is your opinion? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.34.8.212 (talk) 16:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Anglo bias revisted

The battle is best remembered for its first day, 1 July 1916, on which the British suffered 57,470 casualties, including 19,240 dead — at that time the bloodiest day in the history of the British Army.

Shouldn't this read "...on which British Empire forces suffered..." and "...the bloodiest day in the history of British Empire and British Army forces"? As it reads now, non-Britis casualties are being described as British. Fishhead64 21:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

On review, this bias is pervasive throughout the article.

As discussed above, Canada and Australia etc were regarded as "British" in 1916, far more so than in subsequent generations. (They didn't even declare war separately, IIRC, they just thought the UK's DOW was binding on them). The Somme was and is the big horror in British national memory, like Verdun, Vimy and Gallipoli are for other countries. Still, it could do with more French and German info.

[edit] remove strategic effects section

There is a citations tag on the conclusions section. As I understand it this is requesting more citations for the argument counter-argument section headed "Strategic effects". I disagree with this approach. The original (2006) "Strategic effects" was a set of unsubstantiated opinions dressed up as fact. I edited it to show that these were opinions and that there were alternative views. On consideration my efforts to moderate this section with counterpoints is not the correct solution. Adding citations to these two counter-vailing viewpoints will only add a spurious credibility to the whole section. It is a bit like having a section comparing darwinian selction and creationism: adding citations to creationist authors is total fakery. The consensus throughout the C.20th was that the Somme was a military disaster for Britain. The theory being presented here that the Somme laid the foundations of Germany's defeat represents a revolution in historiography if it is true. A new controversial theory such as this requires a lot of supporting evidence and serious analysis and critique. It is inappropriate, even intellectually dishonest to present it as accepted history at the end of an article which is mostly a straightforward chronology.

If contributors want to continue to present this (entirely unconvincing) theory it should have it's own page.

The Strategic effects section should be deleted or reduced to a some sort of short one liner stating that it had no clear strategic effects and possibly linking to this controversial theory on a separate page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pmurnion (talk • contribs) 09:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

The "revolution in historiography" has been going on for decades, and is now almost a consensus among serious historians. It is only very recently (since the late 1990s) that it has started to penetrate popular consciousness. When I was a kid it always used to puzzle me how the Allies ever won the First World War. You had all these "disasters" (Gallipoli, Somme, Passchendaele etc), the Germans conquered various bits of Europe etc. Then the Germans mysteriously collapsed in the final round, supposedly because of the blockade (which in fact only really bit hard in the final years and into 1919) and/or the glorious American victory in the Argonne. Compared to that, the idea that the huge battles of the western front played a role in grinding down the German army is actually a great deal more convincing. That's not to say that the Somme was a spectacular victory, of course - merely that it was a necessary price. Nowadays we all live comfortable lives in the West (although some would argue that war is a necessary part of human existence and we have lost sight of how sheltered we are by our technological superiority) and it is hard to come to terms with how willingly our great-grandfathers went to their deaths, which is perhaps why those who point out a few home truths have to put up with comical abuse "Intellectual Dishonesty" "Disgrace to Scholarship" etc.

In my view this strategic effect cannot be attributed to the Somme battle but to the strategic situation of the war itself. With facing 200 million Russians, 60 million French and 50 million British it doesn't matter where German soldiers died, if it was not an entirely lopsided engagement it was to the advantage of the Allies. Austria Hungary had been thoroghly bled dry by the opening offensives of Russia. Turkey was even in a worse strategic position than Germany ending up in a four front war all over its empire and additionally in no shape whatsoever to fight a modern industrialized war. The strategic position of Germany demanded a crushing and quick victory over one of her foes in her military plans precisely because it was obvious for anyone in the high command that a war of attrition was to germany's disadvantage and time was in favour of the Allies. The blockade of Germany which depended on food imports was as much a factor of this as all battles of attrition the German army was forced to fight.
Also concerning the blockade: It's effects were massive, the reason why these effects weren't visible at the front lines was simply that everything was done to keep the German army fighting and thus fed. At home however thousands of Germans starved to death and malnutition and everyday problem which is not usual for a wealthy industrial society.

The blockade bit gradually on Germany throughout the war, its effects at this stage being mainly food shortages and slightly higher mortality rates among children and the elderly. Lack of potatoes did not defeat the German Army though - lack of manpower did, and large battles on the Western Front were a factor in this. "Death and malnutrition", among adults at any rate, were only widespread in Germany in the fianl stages of the war and in the year or so afterwards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.134.22.101 (talk) 15:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Disgustingly British

The battle of Vimy ridge is not considered a Canadian victory, Vimy Ridge wasa canadian victory!

[edit] Count zero hour

The article says arty lifted at zero hour; Regan, p.158, says ten minutes prior. Also, I deleted, "an act that would ultimately bring the United States into the war" as fiction; it was more due to Germany promising Texas to Mexico if she joined the war, revealled by the Zimmermann telegram, which the U.S., needless to say, couldn't reveal she'd read...but which, I would have thought, historiographers would have heard of. My mistake; it's persistently ignored.... Trekphiler 17:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] French army

The article blatantly discounts the contribution of the French forces. However their contribution was far from negligible: 13 British and 11 French divisions were present at the start, moving on to 51 British and 48 French divisions at the end. Half the allied casualties were French. There clearly is a problem with the way the article is presently drafted. 193.132.242.1 13:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a fault which it shares with almost all accounts in English. I suspect a French division may have been somewhat smaller than a British one though - the French would had originally planned to do more on the Somme but Verdun kicked off first. As for the skewing of the casualty figures (2/3 of them British) the French were more skilled in infantry/artillery tactics as they had been doing more fighting up until that point, and also German resistance was heavier on the British front as they had to cover the railway line through Bapaume. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.40.200.97 (talk) 23:36, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Darcy Hodgson

The commander of the British 4th army was changed here from Henry S. Rawlinson to Darcy Hodgson. I reverted it, as I was unable to to find any mention of the latter, and would expect someone in that position to have an article, which they did not. If I am incorrect in this assumption, please feel free to correct me! Thanks --Kateshortforbob 21:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

These four sentences violate wikipedia NPOV guidelines:

As terrible as the battle was for the British Empire troops who suffered there, it naturally affected the other nationalities as well. One German officer (Captain von Hentig) famously described it as "the muddy grave of the German field army". By the end of the battle, the British had learned many lessons in modern warfare, while the Germans had suffered irreplaceable losses. British historian Sir James Edmonds stated: "It is not too much to claim that the foundations of the final victory on the Western Front were laid by the Somme offensive of 1916." [1]

The first sentence is a tautology, the second is insidious given the blatantly unbalanced sentence that follows it. It is in fact too much to claim "that the foundations of the final victory on the Western Front were laid by the Somme offensive of 1916," in the opening paragraph of a Wikipedia article, as this view is highly debatable, and not widely held by British historians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tripalis (talk • contribs) 04:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The Allied forces attempted to break through the German lines along a 95-mile (40 km) front north and south of the River Somme in northern France.

Should this be "95-km (40 mile)? 95 miles is a lot more than 40 km. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.193.65.250 (talk) 11:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How wide was the front?

The Allied forces attempted to break through the German lines along a 95-mile (40 km) front north and south of the River Somme in northern France.

I don't think the front at the Somme was as long as 95 miles. If it was, then it would be 152 km, not 40. If the author meant to say 95 km, then it would be about 57 miles. If the front was 40 miles, then it would be 64 km.--Nunquam Dormio (talk) 15:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beetfarm Louie (talk • contribs) 11:47, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

The British attacked on a front of approximately 14 miles. The front was not straight, the actual direct line between the northernmost and southernmost points of attack was only about 11 miles. The French attack front was something less. So the TOTAL length of front attacked was less than 20 miles. The whole point about the Somme was the tiny space all the killing occurred in. 95 miles is garbage. Rcbutcher (talk) 14:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discrepancy RE: British Forces Casualities on First Day of Battle

Reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I we find the following: "On 1 July 1916, the first day of the Battle of the Somme, the British Army endured the bloodiest day in its history, suffering 57,470 casualties and 19,240 dead. Most of the casualties occurred in the first hour of the attack. The entire offensive cost the British Army almost half a million men.

This article says: "The battle is best remembered for its first day, 1 July 1916, on which the British suffered 67,470 casualties, including 29,240 dead — the bloodiest day in the history of the British Army." Someone who knows something about the subject will want to fix one article, or the other, I am sure. Hi There (talk) 00:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

All serious sources quote the British dead on July 1 as nearly 20,000. The exact number can differ based on definitions used, subsequent findings, casualties who died later. A commonly quoted number is 19,240. Rod Rcbutcher (talk) 07:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Time to lock all these Battle pages ?

It's obvious that corrupting all the WWI battle pages has become a sport with semi-literate kids. Unless we lock the pages and restrict update to trusted users, we're going to be on a never-ending firefighting exercise. The idea that anonymous users contribute anything to Wikipedia is baloney. Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 21:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia section

Isn't it somewhat tasteless, to say the very least, that there is a 'Trivia Section' right after the death toll of the battle? If JRR Tolkien was a combatant, then he should be listed in a section of people who were combatants —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.37.250.195 (talk) 16:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] First American Killed of WWI

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history.do?action=Article&id=50645 there are more articles on him, and even a whole book. although he was serving for the royal artillery, he was definitely of American nationality. a sacrifice as equal of any.70.135.12.223 (talk) 10:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who won?

User:Trip Johnson has been changing this to an allied victory, although he has not provided references. I changed it back to indecisive, and it should stay that way unless a reference can be provided. (Bluemr145 (talk) 15:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC))

Trip Johnson is getting into many disputes on various battle pages. It's best to treat his edits with some caution. Nunquam Dormio (talk) 17:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me, before you go around stereotyping, someone changed this battle to an Allied victory before me. Maybe you should do some homework before accusing people, eh? (82.28.237.200 (talk) 21:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC))
No, you were the one who did it. You seem to have a problem when people change things without disscussing it, so please do not do it ot others. If you can find a reliable source we can keep it at what you put, but unitl you do it must remain the same. Bluemr145 (talk) 12:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Given the fact that the outcome of the battle was thousands dead on both sides and a total of 5 miles gained by the allies, I don't think by any stretch of the imagination you could call it an allied victory! Joe Deagan (talk) 00:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)