Talk:Battle of the Paracel Islands

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[edit] Cleanup notice

As noted above, some problems with basic facts on the page. Plenty of grammatical and spelling errors ("continuing thru") and awkward expressions. Some terms need to be made consistent --Sumple (Talk) 04:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Historical Background

I've begun editing this entry, starting today with the Historical Background section. I've condensed it greatly, believing that most of the previously-included information rightly belongs in the general Paracel Islands entry rather than here. I've attempted to spruce up the vocabulary and narrative flow, and maintain a NPOV. I will try to edit the other sections soon. Comments are welcome! SteveStrummer (talk) 04:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This was a very rewarding editorial project for me, and I hope what I've done contributes positively to an understanding of this notable but underappreciated event. With great respect for the subject, I'm going to consider my editing of this article finished, more or less. I thank the previous editors, and I hope that future editors will find the work useful. Comments are still always welcome! SteveStrummer (talk) 03:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your hard work! DHN (talk) 04:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, I still think that the section is a bit too PoV. After all, most of it is built around the idea that "the islands were historically considered part of ancient Vietnam" (the Vietnamese PoV) while the Chinese PoV is relegated to words like "undeterred", "sensing opportunity" and the like. (And according to the Chinese Wikipedia, China's claim actually dated back to the Tang Dynasty.) I feel that the section is still a bit too PoV-ish. Tim Song (talk) 07:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Upon reflection, I do see your objection as valid, at least regarding the opening sentence: it is indeed unfair to say "historically considered part of ancient Vietnam" without saying who made those considerations, and I have revised this sentence accordingly. I've also eliminated "undeterred", but only because I removed its associated remarks entirely: the early skirmish to which it referred is, upon review, not sufficiently documented to be useful (it was only briefly mentioned in a NYT article), so I've consolidated the remarks to their most salient point, which is simply that the islands were intransigently disputed. As for "sensing opportunity", I must respectfully disagree that there is any bias inherent in that phrase: we are talking about politics and warfare here, and the military opportunity - set forth and explained in the preceding sentence - is patently obvious. Nonetheless, I appreciate your careful reading of this article and the constructive criticism it raised. With this new revision, I hope the PoV flag on this article can be removed by consensus. SteveStrummer (talk) 04:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem, as I see it, is that the article attributed to China the act of "sensing", when it's hard to say whether China did so proactively - a Chinese source described China's renewal of the claims as a response to South Vietnam's announcement of an oil survey in the disputed area, and further described the Chinese fleet as "hastily assembled" - hardly a sign of preparedness, as "sensing opportunity" would suggest. See [1]. Further, it is, I think, unlikely that China would attack Vietnam first during the Cultural Revolution and when its relations with USSR was extremely tense. (The Sino-Soviet border conflict occurred just 5 years before the battle.) Tim Song (talk) 19:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

It can't be realistically suggested that China somehow stumbled blindly or unwillingly into this conflict. However "hastily assembled" the fleet may have been, it was nonetheless sent to the Paracels vicinity on a specific date: after 20 years of dispute, there can be no doubt that January, 1974, was chosen as a uniquely opportune time to arrive and plant flags, as opposed to, say, January, 1950, or January, 1968. Pointing out the context of an event such as this is not PoV, it is necessary information in historical study. SteveStrummer (talk) 23:01, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Realistic or not, according to China it was drawn into this conflict unwillingly - South Vietnam announced its intention to conduct an oil survey earlier, and according to China it had to do something to prevent it. At the very least, I think, the part should account for China's explanation and let the reader decide if China's position is persuasive. The political turmoil in China at that time and the hostility between China and the USSR d to suggest that China was indeed forced to respond lest its claim be forever lost. (China also has perfectly legitimate reasons not to send ships to the islands in 1950 - the Civil War has not yet ended - and in 1968 - tense relationship w/ USSR.) If an explanation is plausible, I think, then we should acknowledge its presence rather than totally omitting it. Tim Song (talk) 16:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the "explanation" of either side is in question, and neither one denigrated at all. I think you are erroneously conflating the meaning of "sensing opportunity" with that of "exhibiting opportunism", but since this perception may be more widespread than I imagine, I have revised the section again. I have used your very words to change the text, and with that I trust you will remove the PoV flag.SteveStrummer (talk) 00:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the hard work. The flag is removed. Tim Song (talk) 07:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

And I thank you too. SteveStrummer (talk) 20:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

I request an administrator to change this article's name to "Battle of the Paracel Islands". Originally this article was titled "Battle of Hoang Sa", using the Vietnamese form of the name. It's been changed to the English form (which seems only fair, since this is an English page), but unfortunately the contributor settled for "Battle of Paracel", an incorrect form of the name. "Paracel" is not the name of any island, nor is it used to denote the archipelago as a whole. The full descriptive name "Paracel Islands" is the definitive form. The simple plural "The Paracels" is used usually (though not necessarily) only after context has been established: note how all substantive maps and atlases denote the area as "(the) Paracel Islands", and use "The Paracels" only in subsequent text. Currently there are four redirecting pages to this article: "Battle of the Paracel Islands", "Battle of the Paracels", "Battle of Xisha", "Battle of the Xishas", and "Battle of Hoang Sa". The requested name change requires an administrator because the requested name is already in use. SteveStrummer (talk) 00:32, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I'm going to go ahead and do it right now. I doubt there will be objections. Keep up the good work! El_C 06:00, 5 April 2008 (UTC)