Talk:Battle of Saragarhi

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Battle of Saragarhi article.
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[edit] Propaganda?

Curiously, the entire talk page contents for this article, including comments made just a few hours ago, have been banished to an archive, and referenced revisions I made to the article itself have been replaced by claims which, although also referenced, appear to be propaganda (e.g. 4,800 Afghan casualties inflicted by 21 Sikhs with 8,000 bullets; a UNESCO publication about which UNESCO appear to know nothing). Therefore, I'm simply going to state that in its present state, this is the sort of article which gives Wikipedia a bad name. David Trochos (talk) 00:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, some users are trying to spread propaganda here. The UNESCO claim is not credible, unless the original UNESCO source is cited. The many references provided are obviously based on a single source, as is evident by the similar wording. Similarly, the source about 4,800 deaths during the entire campaign is being misrepresented as if all those deaths occurred in a single day during the Battle of Saragarhi. utcursch | talk 03:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's a tantalising reference from Google Books:
Sohan Singh Sahota "The Destiny of the Sikhs" Sterling Publishers (1971) page 37: "the great saga of Saragarhi is one of the seven stories of heroism selected out of the entire world history and published by UNESCO."
On the other hand, as far as I can tell, there are no Greek sources referring to the UNESCO citation of the Battle of Thermopylae. I wonder if the publication, presumably back in the 1950s or 60s, was part of a UNESCO-sponsored literacy project in one of the Indian languages? David Trochos (talk) 18:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
All these different books seem to be sourced from a similar source. In the past, I've tried to search extensively for this original UNESCO reference, but have failed. I wonder if this collection of stories was part of some magazine, journal etc. published by UNESCO. If UNESCO officially made a list of stories of heroism or collective bravery, the list and the publication should have been easier to find. utcursch | talk 11:06, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Afghan casualties

Now here's a funny thing. The lower figure of 180 Afghan casualties which I put in, based on Sikhiwiki's Saragarhi article, has quite rightly been removed as that article no longer gives that figure. Unfortunately, no explanation is given there for the change to a minimum of 600- but that's not the funny thing. The funny thing is that the 600 figure was put in there by user Sikh2 to replace the 180 figure at 19.33 on 28 Feb 2008 (the only contribution by that user that day); then at 19.36, user James smith2 removed the 180 figure from this article, his first contribution after a 97-minute break from En.Wikipedia. Synchronicity or what? David Trochos (talk) 10:06, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Does David Trochos have Anti-Sikh agenda?

Why is David Trochos removing other peoples references but using his own references. Why does David Trochos feel his references are correct when others are not. Why does David Trochos feels he has the right to remove references and replace with his own. As far as I'm concerned David Trochos has a emotional agenda against the Sikhs and is trying to distort history. David Trochos goes against wikipedia policy and

  • removes references and replaces with his own which are not reliable
  • Uses emotive language e.g. Propaganda to attack others
  • Uses abusive language against others
  • Non neutral vandal edits - Negative emotive edits against the Sikhs
  • makes personal attacks

As far as I'm concerned this article has been Hijacked by David Trochos. Please write more negative things about the Sikhs and make personal attacks on others. You seem from your attacks emotionally unstable, seriously get Professional help with your mental health and deal with your real issues in your life. Please do NOT bring your personal life or mental health problem here on wikipedia by releasing these problems on attacking or distorting the history of the Sikhs. Well done, you have turned the whole article into a farse, attacked others and tried to distort the history of the Sikhs. As far as I'm concerned you have a emotional agenda against the Sikhs. Well done you've turned the article into a farse. Keep on writing lies!!!--James smith2 (talk) 16:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A Hoax?

I don't know where this story comes from but on the French Wikipedia nobody recalls to have ever heard something about this battle[1], and certainly not at school. Furthermore a search on "Saragarhi" on the Website of the UNESCO gives no result. It looks as this story about the battle being subject of a course in French schools or cited by the UNESCO is an Indian hoax wich is not backed up be solid sources. --Lebob-BE (talk) 08:19, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed above, as well as in archives. I agree that the stuff about this being taught in schools in France, and being listed by UNESCO doesn't seem to be correct. These claims seem to have originated from a single source, but they have been published in several sources, including reliable newspapers such as The Tribune. However, a primary source from UNESCO or French textbooks is missing. This reminds me of Wikipedia makes for a nightmare in online journalism ethics: "One of them told me that truth is not even an objective of Wikipedia. Rather the criterion is whether a piece of (mis)information came from a 'reliable source.'". utcursch | talk 12:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
OK. I will certainly not make a case from this. But I think that a little bit more critical thinking or even common sense would help to prevent things like "this is teached even in French schools" from being printed in Wikipedia. --Lebob-BE (talk) 15:13, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Good discussion in Le Bistro, thanks Lebob-BE. I had half-heartedly tried to check the "French schools" question, but after finding effectively nothing in Google under: bataille saragarhi :I decided it would, like the UNESCO thing, be a case of trying to prove a negative. David Trochos (talk) 17:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello, again from the "Le Bistro":
The official educational program can be read on Ministry of Education website. You can check the program for the last two years of high school in this decree (in French). Last years of high school are the reasonable years to mention this battle. In the decree, nothing specific is said about India, although teachers would mention India as part of the class about colonization. I don't see how we could prove this battle does not appear in textbooks. I can swear it did not appear in the books I used at school, but who knows, maybe one different book mentions it. As long as the book editors follow at least the official program, they are free to add complimentary educational material in their books.
Moreover one part of the sentence is clearly POV-pushing. The mention of an "official education syllabus for heroic valour" seems to have the only objective to associate the battle to "heroism". The two references provided do not mention this word (they talk about "bravery" mentioned the texts of UNESCO, but bravery is not heroism and UNESCO does not decide on "education syllabus" in France). There is no syllabus in France about "heroic valour". General moral lessons have existed but were dropped several tens of years ago. If Government officials wanted to promote "heroic valour" among pupils, they would have chosen an example from their own country, not from a remote country for a war which is not part of teaching program.
Anyway the word "Saragarhi" does neither appear on French Government websites nor any official publication (check with google or with the full-text search of Government publications since 1990).
If you are reluctant to remove all of this surprising information, I would suggest to:
  • remove the "as part of the official syllabus [...]" which is not present in the sources.
  • Add something like: "According to the Indian newspaper The Tribune"
Have a nice evening. Jérôme (talk) 23:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've had a go. David Trochos (talk) 18:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)