Talk:Battle of Salsu

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Contents 1 Year 2 Sources 3 Sui troops 4 Primary sources

[edit] Year

OK, I'll start this talk.

I see that 612 is the year of this battle. That's nice, but '612' hardly defines any time in particular -- '612' requires a reference date.

Will those with less ignorance than I please supply an appropriate 'zero year' for this '612'? A BCE or CE would be nice, but other forms are fine, too. Don 01:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

The article seems to be based on Korean sources. Can someone provides Chinese or third party sources or statistics so the neutrality of this article will not be disputed? Kc0616 20:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sui troops

時, 帝以<仲文>有計劃, 令諸軍諮稟節度, 故有此言. 由是, <述>等不得已而從之, 與諸將, 渡水追<文德>. <文德>見<述>軍士有饑色, 故欲疲之, 每戰輒走. <述>一日之中, 七戰皆捷, 旣恃驟勝, 又逼群議, 於是, 遂進東濟<薩水>, 去<平壤城>三十里, 因山爲營. <文德>復遣使詐降, 請於<述>曰: “若旋師者, 當奉王, 朝行在所.” <述>見士卒疲弊, 不可復戰, 又<平壤城>險固, 度難猝拔, 遂因其詐而還. <述>等爲方陣而行, 我軍四面鈔擊, <述>等且戰且行. 秋七月, 至<薩水>, 軍半濟, 我軍自後擊其後軍, 右屯衛將軍<辛世雄>戰死. 於是, 諸軍俱潰, 不可禁止. 將士奔還, 一日一夜, 至<鴨淥水{鴨綠水}>󰄲, 行四百五十里. 將軍<天水><王仁恭>爲殿, 擊我軍却之. <來護兒>聞<述>等敗, 亦引還. 唯<衛文昇>一軍獨全. 初, 九軍到{度}󰄲<遼>, 凡三十萬五千, 及還至<遼東城>, 唯二千七百人, 資儲器械巨萬計, 失亡蕩盡.

Samguk Sagi vol. 20, 三國史記 高句麗本記 瓔陽王條 23年.

This article is enough evidence. 三十萬五千 also 二千七百人 was deserve attention.

Korea history 14:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

No, you are misreading the last sentence. It noted that 305,000 men crossed the Liao, not that they crossed the Yalu. The losses, therefore, are for the entire campaign, not for Salsu (and even if it could be read as "crossed the Yalu," they certainly didn't all die at that single battle, but died during the part of the campaign led by Yuwen Shu). Part of the army remained under Emperor Yang's own command and was sieging Liaodong. --Nlu (talk) 14:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Further, in a passage that you did not quote (and which I can't get to right now since the Seoul National University site hosting the PDF files is down), Yu Zhongwen stated that he and Yuwen Shu had 100,000 men. While that obviously wasn't an exact figure and was used for effect by Yu, it is at least some evidence of the number of men they had. --Nlu (talk) 14:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

It says that about 3,000 escaped from the original 300,000 [1] Good friend100 15:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Correct; the question is, though, does 300,000 refer to the army that Yuwen and Yu commanded that crossed the Yalu River against Pyongyang? A reasonable reading of the passage (the whole passage, not just the part Korea history quoted) indicates that 300,000 was the overall Sui troop strength. Further, even if arguendo 300,000 crossed the Yalu, they did not all die at Salsu; there were many other battles on that campaign. --Nlu (talk) 15:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Primary sources

We should not take primary sources from fourteen centuries ago at face value for casualty numbers, if we don't have corroborating evidence.

Agreed, although I would go further, this article should either be rewritten or deleted —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.199.31.188 (talk) 12:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)