Talk:Battle of Radzymin (1944)

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[edit] Article

The link: Jan Sidorowicz. Co działo się na wschód od Wisły w czasie Powstania Warszawskiego?. Gazeta - dziennik Polonii w Kanadzie. Retrieved on October 17, 2005. is no more activ. --83.5.167.35 19:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, very interesting, thank you. In the future feel free to add it yourself to the article.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Aftermath comment

The sentence Some Polish and Western historians argue that the Soviet assault was halted because Stalin wanted the Warsaw insurgents, loyal to the Polish government in exile (known for its anti-Soviet stance), destroyed. was removed by one editor and restored by another.

My take is that the sentence is broader in scope than the topic of the article as a whole, but given the comment on the postwar Communist propaganda regarding the Battle of Radzymin, this sentence may be useful for balance. The sentence, though, is a bit incomplete since there are other interpretations of why the Soviets did not advance further.

Suggest the sentence be worded as Some Polish and Western historians argue that the Soviet assault was halted because Stalin wanted the Warsaw insurgents, loyal to the Polish government in exile (known for its anti-Soviet stance), destroyed, while other historians have argued the Soviet army ceased offensive operations because its offensive had carried it hundreds of miles and the units required a pause in operations.

In any case, the phrase "some ... historians" should be footnoted with references as it is vague. Cheers--W. B. Wilson (talk) 19:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed the sentence because it falls broadly into the strategic-political scheme of things where as the subject of the article is a tactical or at best operational level event. There is therefore a dis-associated void between the cause and effect that would have to be filled by the editor so the writer could appreciate the substance of the claims. However I thought that given the echelon of command the decision is asserted to have been taken at, its place in this article is not appropriate since the planning of this battle would not have been based on the political considerations.

As an aside, the described events were not a "battle of" but the closing part of the last phase of the Operation Bagration. Far from being apologist for Soviet propaganda, it is difficult to comprehend the overall situation in the sector by looking at the events centred around one Army, or even four armies on a sector of front that involved 5-6 Fronts.--mrg3105 mrg3105 If you're not taking any flack, you're not over the target. 03:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The comment I wrote on propaganda referred to After World War II, communist propaganda used the example of the Battle of Radzymin of 1944 as a proof that the German counter-attack prevented the Red Army from helping the Warsaw Uprising. Now, that statement is not about the events of the battle itself, but it is relevant to the article. The use of the Radzymin battle for propaganda is an aftermath of the battle; in this sense, it is somewhat comparable to the propaganda that was issued by the Germans re: the Battle of Krojanty in 1939. The problem with the sentence is that it requires a bit more discussion to bring it into perspective, thus my comments about the text that was deleted and restored serving to balance the text. Cheers--W. B. Wilson (talk) 04:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The issue is discussed in more detail in Warsaw Uprising and Lublin-Brest Offensive. The battle is most notable for being used as a Soviet propaganda excuse; this was noted in the article - but we should make it clear it is an excuse (or at least seen by some as such), and show the contradicting POV (per NPOV policy). This is what the aftermath section is for. The article of course needs improvement and inline refs, but I suggest expanding it (the two articles I mentioned should have enough referenced material for that), not shortening it. PS. I think that battle is not part of the Bagarion but of the somewhat less famous Lublin-Brest Offensive.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Another thing to consider is the name of the battle. It took place near Radzymin, Wołomin and Siedlce, so the name Battle of Radzymin is somewhat misleading. Polish wiki now uses a perhaps better name - Battle of Warsaw (1944). What do you think about renaming the article? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This may confuse laymen readers of the English Wiki. Those who know any Polish history will assume the article refers to the uprising and not the battles to the east and northeast of the city. --W. B. Wilson (talk) 04:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps. Of course we have battle of Berlin and battle in Berlin :) What would be a good name then? What's the most popular one in English sources? PS. As for confusion, what is the poor reader to do when looking at 'battle of Radzymin' article which has a subheading 'German units present at the Battle of Wołomin'... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The names of the Berlin "battles" will be changed eventually. One will be the Berlin strategic offensive operation that included the encirclement of the city (5 other smaller operations) and the other will be Battle for Berlin, with is the operation to occupy the city by two Fronts. There was no "battle of Radzymin" in Soviet military history, and I'm not sure about its name in German operational history.--mrg3105 mrg3105 If you're not taking any flack, you're not over the target. 06:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)