Talk:Battle of Princeton

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[edit] Contradictions

According to the article, around 500 British soldiers were killed. On the other hand, according to the battlebox, 195 British casualties were incurred. Which piece of information is correct? AndyZ 20:53, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

  • The 195 is more likely, because battles in the Revolutionary War are not known for the number of men killed. I have no proof by the way. - TopAce 14:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Battle box

The battle box is way off compared to the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.53.16 (talk • contribs) 00:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Washington chose the ground at the second battle of Trenton

Washington was not 'cornered' at the second battle of Trenton, as the text currently states. See Washington's Crossing by David Hackett Fischer (ISBN 0195170342), page 277: "The Americans expected an attack in great strength by British and Hessian troops. In council they decided to receive it in Trenton on ground of their own choosing." The Americans re-crossed the Delaware to Trenton in expectation of engaging the British and Hessian troops; they were not cornered there. [20:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)] (Signed on 2/28 - forgot to sign this the first time) Valtam 15:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question for the 4.240.*.* editor

When you say, The 17th, part of the 55th, and the Dragoons broke through, continuing down the road to Trenton, pursued by Washington, who broke off his pursuit when some of Leslie's troops came into sight, I'm a little confused. Weren't the British attacking through the orchard, away from the Princeton-Trenton road? That is, if they 'broke through', wouldn't they be on the wrong road (the eastern road, which Washington used in the march from Trenton to Princeton the night before)? My (limited) understanding was that the British turned and retreated at this point. But, if you could explain it to me, I'd be much obliged. Thanks. Valtam 18:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Eight months later, I've simplified the references by removing the exact names of the smaller British units. Valtam 19:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Perspective is Skewed towards Americans

  • Battle is listed as a "Decisive American Victory" when the only decisive thing about the entire battle was that the Americans were left in control of the battlefield. By this measure, Bunker Hill is a "Decisive British Victory," although it is only listed as Phyrric, and Monmouth should be a "Decisive American Victory" although it is only listed as Inconclusive. What you basically have is an American force 1) attacking a British force in a peicemeal fashion, 2) meeting heavy resistance, 3) failing to destroy a numerically inferior enemy, 4) allowing said enemy to escape and fight again, 5) slinking off to lick its wounds before Cornwallis can catch it, and 6) failing to capitalize on any of the real strategic goals open to it. By this measure, the battle of Khe Sahn was an NVA victory. I feel it should be listed as either a Phyrric American Victory, or Inconclusive. Tactical American Victory at the very most.
  • Americans over the course of the battle VASTLY outnumbered the British, especially towards the end. However, the battle box misleading claims the British force was 8,000 men. this might be true in the agregate, but at the actual battle, only the rearguard of 1,200 was involved, and the main body too far away to be of assistance had it even known what was going on. Thus according to the battle box, you have the Americans outnumbered by the Brits 2:1, while in actuality the battle started off about even with an eventual 6:1 manpower advantage on the part of the Americans.
  • No mention of the loss of General Mercer is made the in the battle box, despite his importance to the Continenal cause.
  • No mention is made of the failure of Washington to follow up and take 70,000 pounds in Silver in New Brunswick after the battle, despite the fact that it was virtually undefended and had the Americans captured it, might have caused the British to sue for peace right then and there. I feel this is at least as important as mentioning that NJ then mostly fell to the Continental forces. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Btswanfury (talk • contribs) 05:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
I would be happy calling this a "Tactical American Victory." I'll make the change.
Regarding numbers - the main body of the British force was only a few hours' march away, to the south. Washington carried out an unexpecting, daring move by stealing away in the night and attacking the British from the rear. The audacity of this helps make the victory impressive to many Americans.
I don't know much about the silver - did Washington definitively know it was undefended in New Brunswick? Do you have a source for his knowledge?
I look forward to working with you on the article! Valtam 15:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply regarding the silver.
From: http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1290.html
"Washington was faced with a crucial decision. The aggressive side of his character wanted to march directly on the British regional headquarters at New Brunswick, which held ₤70,000 in silver and a huge store of supplies. His more conservative side, however, realized that Cornwallis was in pursuit and that his own army was exhausted. The latter prevailed."
From: http://www.historynet.com/wars_conflicts/american_revolution/3033596.html?page=3&c=y
"'My original plan when I set out from Trenton was to have pushed on to Brunswick,' Washington later explained to Hancock, 'but the harassed state of our own troops (many of them having had no rest for two nights and a day) and the danger of losing the advantage we had gained by aiming at too much, induced me, by the advice of my officers, to relinquish the attempt. But in my judgment, six or eight hundred fresh troops upon a forced march would have destroyed all their stores and magazines, taken (as we have since learned) their military chest containing 70,000 pounds, and put an end to the war.'"
From the Burlington Country Web site:
"The American generals would have liked to continue the chase, following the British regiment from Princeton on the road to New Brunswick, where immense supplies and a British military chest containing 70,000 English pounds were stored under light guard. The rank and file, however, were exhausted, and the American army moved north, into the hills."
I could come up with some hard-paper references for you if you must have them, but I am at the office. Regardless of wether or not Washington knew of the pay chest being at New Brunswick and virtually undefended (wether he knew the chest was there or not remains open to debate), there is no doubt that 1) he knew there were at the very least massive British army stores there for the taking, and 2) that if he had captured the British military pay chest, there is little doubt (even in his mind) that its capture would have led to an almost immediate peace...nearly 6 years before the cessation of hostilities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.186.1 (talk • contribs) 19:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the links Btswanfury. (I presume it's you - don't forget to sign your posts with the four tildes.) I'm at the office, too, so I'll try to digest them tonight. Interestingly, the book "Washington's Crossing" doesn't discuss the silver, if I rightly recall. Thanks for the links! Valtam 21:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Follow-up - Washington's aside, "as we have since learned" makes it uncertain to me whether he knew of the silver on the day of the battle. I want to research this some more. Valtam 21:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separate article for park?

Other NJ State parks have their own entry. Why not this one? I don't know much about the history of the park, but presumably there is some, and descriptions of the site are appropriate.--Natcase 17:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nassau Hall, Princeton University

Shouldn't there be more about the fighting at Nassau Hall and about Princeton University? First, John Witherspoon, the President of Princeton (then College of NJ I think) was part of the Continental Congress, and Nassau Hall had been used to house American troops prior to the British arrival. There is the famous story of Alexander Hamilton firing a cannonball which destroyed a painting of king george, and a cannon ball can still be seen lodged in the building. The surprise at Nassau Hall was very complete (this part of the battle I think is decisive) and the Continental Army was able to stock up on supplies found in the building. --Rendsburg (talk) 13:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradictions 2

Edits are being persisted upon the Battle of Princeton, using an unreliable source. The ridiculous claim that Washington attacked with only 1,400 men, seriously contradicts the numbers that is listed in the article (over 4,000). Also the claim that casualties were 40 killed and 40 wounded heavily contradicts the part in the article that states "and suffered heavier casualties", referring to the American forces. A source had already been listed which states the American losses as 45 killed and 110 wounded, but with total ignorance to that source, it is continually replaced with the unreliable source. I have even found a source here which states the strength: http://www.doublegv.com/ggv/battles/Princeton.html (Trip Johnson (talk) 21:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC))

Hmm but British Battles.com, which is a reliable reference to you, states that there were 40 killed and wounded on the American Side. You have already called British Battles a reliable reference so why are you now changing you view? http://britishbattles.com/
Here is the reference with the strength. http://www.myrevolutionarywar.com/battles/770103.htm
(Red4tribe (talk) 22:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC))
Hmm, did you ever think it was a typo, which it is? What about myrevolutionarywar.com, which makes the ridiculous claim that 350 British troops were killed at the Battle of Brandywine? Both pathetic and ridiculous. Casualties on britishbattles are usually a bit 'iffy', but the strength is fairly reliable. And, why do you keep trying to change nearly every battle to an American victory, some when they are indecisive? Is the claim that, because they didn't lose, they must have won? And, where did I say britishbattles was a reliable reference? It's only fairly reliable, no source is completely reliable. Haven't you took tirronan's advice and taken a wiki break? Considering most battles are being changed to an American victory, obviously you haven't. (Trip Johnson (talk) 09:43, 20 April 2008 (UTC))
Nearly all battles to an American Victory? I have changed a whopping 4 battles to an American Victory. I have changed 3 battles to British Victories. About even if you ask me. You have a desire to add on to the end of every American Victory a bunch of uneeded words. Such as "Successful American Withdrawl". I'd love to see how many battles you've changed to British victories. If British Battles is iffy with casualties why are we using it for the British side? Anyways we aren't going to get anywhere arguing with each other, we need other people to get in to talk. (Red4tribe (talk) 14:47, 20 April 2008 (UTC))
How many battle have I changed to British victories when they have been either American victories or Indecisive. Here's the overwhelmingly massive long list:
Engagements on Lake Ontario
Wow! That's a lot isn't it! The fact is, you keep editing battles to American victories without actually describing what happened in the battle in a nutshell. If you think that it should just be a two word answer, then you really have no business editing wikipedia articles. Look at the Battle of Lexington, that has a very long worded answer, because it describes the actual outcome. The results that you put in are just far too bland. (Trip Johnson (talk) 16:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC))
I'm sure I could go through and find plenty more, such as Germantown being a "total faliure" and Germantown being a "Decisive British victory", the war of 1812 being a British Victory but I'm not going to and I'm done with you here. I will only post back here if someone else comes into the conversation. Goodbye (Red4tribe (talk) 16:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC))
You don't honestly think Germantown was an American victory do you? If you do then, hell, god help us all! (Trip Johnson (talk) 17:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Third Opinion

If anyone has a third opinion, please post what you think here. I would be glad to hear it. From references I have heard British casualties from 40 killed and 58 wounded, up to 86 killed. So clearly there is a big gap there. Here are some references. http://www.britishbattles.com/battle-princeton.htm
http://www.theamericanrevolution.org/battles/bat_prtn.asp
http://www.doublegv.com/ggv/battles/Princeton.html
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1290.html
http://www.myrevolutionarywar.com/battles/770103.htm
It is up to someone else to make the decision. As you can see we aren't getting anywhere.(Red4tribe (talk) 23:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC))

I think we should probably leave this decision to an admin, whether to keep the long-standing FACT that Washington had 4,600 men, or a more unreliable number of 1,400. (Trip Johnson (talk) 09:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC))
Admins have no special insight that makes their judgment on content any more valid than anyone else's. Could I suggest, however, that you provide your references that support the figure of 4,600, whether printed or online, so that people looking at this third opinion request can assess the reasons for the discrepancy. CIreland (talk) 16:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Starting on a 3O

Okay, so.. I'm having a hard time with these sources. There's nothing about http://www.myrevolutionarywar.com/battles/770103.htm that makes me accept it as a reliable secondary source. The site doesn't make any claims about its sourcing or anything. doublegv.com seems to be a site for primary sources, and it says "Washington has but 5,200 men, many unreliable militia", which seems far larger than 1400. britishbattles.com says "Size of the armies: 7,000 Americans against 8,000 British and Hessians although only 1,200 British troops were principally engaged." But again, I'm skeptical of these sources.

As to the other issue about how many British casualties there were, well... I don't really know. I'd maybe say to show the numbers in a range (40-86?) but I don't know if that's the right way to go. Either way, I listed this discussion over at WT:MILHIST so hopefully somebody will come by to help settle this debate. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 02:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think myrevolutionarywar.com is that reliable a source - it's based on an older edit of the Wikipedia page. I'm pretty sure (but not positive) that I wrote an early draft of the Wikipedia 'Battle of Princeton' page, after reading 'Washington's Crossing.' (Prior to that, the page was just a stub.) It looks like myrevolutionarywar.com just copied the text to their page. Valtam 15:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Well then, it shouldn't even be considered for use for this page. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Myrevolutionarywar has come under a lot of critisisim,(and reasonably so) but how do we know that someone was not copying from their site onto wikipedia? (Red4tribe (talk) 15:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC))

That's not really a justification. The website still cites no articles or secondary sources, and makes no claims of how verifiable its information is. It's not a news source and it doesn't seem to be run by anyone who's notable on the subject, so why should it be used? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok then, for the strength of the Americans we'll use 4,200 or was it 5,200? I cant't remember. AS for the casualties I think 40-86 would look very odd. So we will have to come up for something on that. (Red4tribe (talk) 19:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC))

Please, one of you, look up an actual book on the subject. The standard reference would still be The Battles of Trenton and Princeton by William S. Stryker, which has been reprinted fairly recently and should be widely available. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Do you have a copy of the book? What does it say? I'll assume good faith on this. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 19:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Try ILL, but I'll see if I can find it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Maybe Google Books? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 23:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Stryker (Houghton Mifflin, 1898, p. 292)
    • American: 40 killed and wounded
    • British: 400 killed wounded and prisoners, about a quarter killed; 216 men, 14 officers, and some stragglers taken prisoner. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Ibid., p. 308-9.
    • Washington's total forces, 7 brigades, totalling 5500 men; but this excludes losses and desertions at Trenton, and Washington made a detachment to carry captured artillery to Burlington. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Three British regiments were engaged; the 55th was "somewhat more than 300 men". The other two were the 16th and 40th. The main body of Cornwallis' army did arrive before Washington was out of sight, but they were halted by a single shot from his rear guard, and sent out patrols, which held them up for a hour. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Actually, Washington's forces did pursue the 200 British who got away, and took 50 more prisoners. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)