Talk:Battle of Orsha
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| Comments | M.K. 10:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC) |
The problems I have with the version of User:W.V.-S.:
- Although I understand that to some it might be somehow touchy, Kanstancin Astrožski was never spelt this way in his lifetime (and I doubt the Cyrillic version of that spelling would tell him anything). It is a modern Belarusian transcryption of his name and nothing more. That's why I decided to use both names he actually used and not the name invented long after his death. If that's considered wrong then perhaps we should use the form Konstantin Ostrozhsky consistently. Kanstancin Astrožski seems out of the question to me.
- Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth did not start after the Union of Lublin. It has a much longer story and the history of Polish-Lithuanian alliances is one of its main parts. That's why I decided to use the term Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth rather than Grand Duchy of Lithuania. It was a joint military operation, with Polish army constituting approximately 50% of the forces. Stating that it was a battle between Lithuania and Muscovy is simply wrong.
- Although the name of the state was Muscovy, the prince was as Russian as he was a Muscovite. Not all names need to be changed to Muscovy.
- Also, I thought that the adjective of Muscovy is Muscovite, not Muscovian.
-- Regards, [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 06:16, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Remove Polish propaganda
My source for the figures of casualties is Zimin's monograph "Rossiya na poroge novogo vremeni" (1972) which compares all figures given in various sources. Right after the battle king Sigismund wrote to the Pope Leo X that his army killed 30000 Muscovites and took prisoner 46 commanders with 1500 nobles. As the Polish government spread this news across Europe, these enormous figures grew larger and larger. The late 16th-century Polish historians (notably Strykowski) wrote about 40000 killed Muscovites and 2000 nobles taken prisoner. Meanwhile, there exist a document listing all the nobles taken prisoner after the battle, name by name. This is the only unprejudiced document we have. And it lists only 380 nobles. Feel the difference, as they say. But the efforts of Polish propaganda were fruitful, if not in relations with Muscovy (which even didn't notice this minor defeat), but with the Holy Roman Empire. Impressed by the figures of Muscovite losses, Emperor Maximilian offered a peace treaty to Sigismund.
Sigismund von Herberstein puts the number of Russian casualties to 30000, and the number of Lithuanian troops to 35000. He's generally a reliable historian, but his information about 80000 Muscovites is not believed by any Russian historian. Ivan the Terrible, who was much stronger than his father and commanded a larger territory, could never muster more than 40000 troops, of whom 20% were newly-conquered Tatars and Finns. Therefore I propose to cut 80000 figure in half. --Ghirlandajo 14:52, Dec 39, 2004 (UTC)
- You are on the best way to be a new wikipedia troll. --Emax 15:46, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Recommendations
I have edited this article, chiefly for style and English. Someone should review it for any inaccuracies, including such as I might have inadvertently introduced, and recommend it for Featured Article recognition. Logologist 01:06, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] some remarks
There was no Polish_Lithuanian Comm. in this time at all M.K. 12:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
