Talk:Battle of Novara (1513)

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[edit] Swiss role

Why is this described as a battle between the French and the Milanese, with Maximilian commanding the Milanese army? The article describes it as a victory of the Swiss, and as I understand it, Maximilian never had an effective army of his own, but relied on the Swiss (who were acting, in this case, as paid auxiliaries, and not as mercenaries, which is a distinction with a difference). Who was commanding the Swiss at this battle? john k 03:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Maximilian actually did have a force of cavalry that was entirely his own; and the Swiss were, indeed, mercenaries in the traditional sense. They would have been commanded by a council of the captains of the individual Swiss detachements; I don't recall the exact names of the leaders, but I suspect Charles Oman lists them (I do know that Albert von Stein arrived too late for the battle). As far as the article is concerned, it's a sorry affair barely above stub level, and not at all comprehensive; I've been meaning to work on it at some point, but have unfortunately lacked the time. Kirill Lokshin 03:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, thanks for the further info. I had thought that in this period the Swiss were actually acting more or less as a power directly involved in the conflict, rather than simply hiring out troops as mercenaries, straight out. The article is indeed rather sorry, although I think a better place to work on in the Italian wars business is the Habsburg-Valois War article, which is a sorry mess that doesn't even mention the siege of Metz or the truce of Vaucelles, and which is almost certainly wrongly titled. john k 04:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The Swiss did pursue their own goals to some extent, but these were usually financial rather than political, and their actual presence on a campaign was entirely dependent on their being paid (indeed, they tended to switch sides to support the highest bidder quite readily); all the sources I've seen tend to explicitly refer to them as "mercenaries" for the duration of the wars.

And yes, the Habsburg-Valois War article is an even bigger mess (and should probably be moved to Italian War of 1551). Kirill Lokshin 04:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur. john k 06:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, when I said "paid auxiliary," what I meant was that in this case it was (some of) the Swiss cantons themselves who were acting as a paid agent of foreign powers, and not individual Swiss soldiers or companies, which is my usual understanding of "mercenaries." john k 06:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I understood that; it's just that (at least in my experience) "mercenaries" is still used to describe them during this period. I suspect this is because the actual Swiss troops were employed at the discretion of their captains, rather than at that of the cantons themselves (much like the condottiere system, really, but with a different way of hiring them initially). I've never seen any published sources discuss the Swiss as "paid auxiliaries," in any case. Kirill Lokshin 12:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers

I have added numeric notes from this website about condottieri battle. I also seem that Novara was not the 2nd most important city of the Duchy, Pavia and Lodi being the most reliable candidates. But ain't sure of this. Bye. --Attilios 01:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)