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Contents 1 Comments 1.1 Executed POWs 1.2 Unfortunately? 1.3 little choice 1.4 The strength of the armies 1.5 Hungarian commanders 1.6 Ottoman-Habsburg wars ??? 1.7 The battle 1.8 Preparation section upgrade 1.9 Troop numbers for the Ottomans and Hungarians

[edit] Comments

[edit] Executed POWs

Reportedly among the 2,000 were Pal Timori and several other notable Hungarian leaders.

I never heard that. What is the source of this information? By the way Tomori was killed by a gunshot, when he tried to stop the fleeing Hungarian soldiers.

[edit] Unfortunately?

This line "Unfortunately the fall of Belgrade ... meant that most of southern Hungary was now indefensible." is apparently written from a point-of-view in which it was unfortunate for Hungary to be indefensible. Should the article be adopting that POV? Filu3

And here again; "Unfortunately, by the time the Ottoman's army had crossed, the Transylvanian army was further from Buda than the Ottomans were. " I think wikipedia should be neutral on battles. Oghuz —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.224.10.220 (talk) 20:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] little choice

This I don't understand at all: "the Ottomans had little choice and decided to use military power" -- why did they have little choice? Filu3

[edit] The strength of the armies

"Hungary mustered some 25,000 men and 85 cannon (only 53 being used in actual battle), while for various reasons the troops from Transylvania and Croatia failed to arrive. The Ottomans are said to have numbered over twice as many - though this figure is exaggerated - and had up to 160 cannon." David Nicolle, Hungary and the fall of Eastern Europe, 1000-1568, p. 13

"The latter group prevailed, and on August 29, 1526, the fateful battle of Mohacs was fought: 25,000 to 28,000 Hungarians and assorted allies on the one side, and on the other 45,000 Turkish regulars supported by 10,000 to 20,000 lightly armed irregulars." L.S. Stavrianos, The Balkans Since 1453, p. 76 Lysandros 17:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

........(i-tech)as i read, ottomans had an army of 100.000 and hungary had a 150.000 one.

what? check your sources ...

Ottoman Empire: population: 20 million.

surface  : >1.5 million skm

Hungary  : population: 4 million

surface  : aprox. 350,000 skm

Plus the Ottoman's had a bigger and much more modern army. --fz22 20:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

you cant know population of ottomans because that times they dont count population.The first population established is 1800s.

              toolga  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toolga (talk • contribs) 20:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 

[edit] Hungarian commanders

Somebody regulary changes the name György Zápolya to John Zápolya. It was György who led the Hungarian army.

The king was present, but not commanded the army. Two commander was elected by the war council: György Zápolya count of Szepes and Pál Tomori archbishop of Kalocsa. They led the army jointly though Tomori was dominant. Both of them became KIA. John Zápolya (voivode of Transylvania)was György's brother and he did not take part in the battle. 84.2.210.3 10:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ottoman-Habsburg wars ???

Someone please explain me why is the battle of Mohács part of the Ottoman-Habsburg wars?

"In the battle, forces of the Kingdom of Hungary led by King Louis II (Jagiellonian) were defeated by forces of the Ottoman Empire led by Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent."

--213.178.108.57 10:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey, sorry for the slow response but understand this: the King of Hungary was married to the sister of the leading Habsburg family member in Austria, the Archduke. In turn, he was married to the sister of King Louis of the Hungarians, so there is a dynastic connection. Furthermoore, it marked the start of the wars so must be included for teh sake of completness. I will however, remove it if a concensus can be achieved against such a decision.Man of Bravery!! 05:07, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The battle

In the second paragraph of this subtitle explainig the battle, it is explained different than I learned from Turkish sources. In Turkish sources it says that letting Hungarian soldiers penetrate deep into the Ottoman army was an old Turkish military tactic. It has been performed in so many battles by the Turks and also by muslim Arabs during the history. The name of this tactic is "Crescent Moon" and it is as follows:

While two armies start engaging, Turks separate themselves into two parts in the left and right wings so that the rival army thinks that Turks are retreating (the shape of the Turkish army,at this stage, looks like a crescent).This causes the rival army to penatrate into the Turkish army with an aim of overwhelming victory.

When the rival army penetrates enough into the Turkish army, two wings start closing trapping the rival army inside and usually no rival slodier is taken prisoner, which simply means massacre of the rival force in the battle field.

The following video shows roughly how the tactic is performed from 2:34 to 2:37. The video has been taken from the movie "Kingdom of heaven". [1]

So that was a planned tactic and did not cause any panic in the Ottoman army. It is true that Sultan Süleyman was in danger for a while and some of his close guards who are called içoğlan were killed by Hungarian soldiers. At the end of the battle there was a pyramid made of about 3000 heads of killed knights and nobles in front of the Süleyman's tent.

--Ersinist 13:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

According to Hungarian sources:

• the Hungarian army was already on the battlefield, when the Ottoman army arrived on August 28. The Hungarian field armies were drawn up into three main battles (to avoid encirclement in long-drawn-out defense), at early dawn. The battle started before all Ottoman units were fully deployed. At 3:00 PM, Tomori's forces opened hostilities in the right and had acieved success, but the middle battles formations failed against the janissary ... So I do not see any 'crescent moon' tactics possible ... Regards --fz22 19:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Preparation section upgrade

What's the goal of this secion if fact? To summarize somehow thousand of bibliography books in few lines. IMO my version is in some degree more accurate then it was. Now the paragraph contains a lot of repetition, contradiction, and irrelevant parts:

• The Hungarian army was divided into three main units... this could be mentioned in the Military of Hungary article under the King Sigismund's Military Laws chapter. It is not connected to the preparation section directly ...

• Contemporary historical records, though sparse, indicate that Louis preferred a plan of retreat, in effect ceding the country to Ottoman advances, rather than directly engaging the Ottoman army in open battle.

Not just indicate, but this is a fact ... Preferred a plan of retreat, up to Mohacs where the densely populated part of the country begun. The Srem was already deserted, in those times.

• The Hungarian forces chose the battlefield, an open but uneven plain with some swampy marshes near Mohács leading down to the Danube.
• The Ottomans had been allowed to advance almost unopposed.
• While Louis waited in Buda, they had besieged several towns and crossed the Sava and Drava Rivers.

repetition

• Louis assembled around 25,000 to 28,000 soldiers while the Ottoman army numbered around 50,000 to 65,000.[1][2][5] correct but already part of the infobox

• The Hungarian army was arrayed to take advantage of the terrain and hoped to engage the Ottoman army piecemeal. - contradiction the battlefield was ill-chosen. --fz22 (talk) 13:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Not a contradiction - the battlefield was level for heavy cavalry to charge through, but was ill - choosen because the Danube was not defended. Tourskin (talk) 00:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Troop numbers for the Ottomans and Hungarians

The Ottoman strength appears to be seriously under estimated. According to the following sources, the Ottomans had 100,000 men almost, and 15,000 Janissaries.

The sources are:

• Grant, R.G. (2005). Battle a Visual Journey Through 5000 Years of Combat. London: Dorling Kindersley, p. 132. 

• Stephen, Turnbull (2003). The Ottoman Empire 1326 - 1699. New York: Osprey, p. 46 - 48. 

I will edit this article if no response is given because the current number of Ottoman troops relies only on a book about Hungarian decline - which might underestimate the strength of the Ottomans and look instead to the weaknessess of the Hungarians on par with the book's theme. Furthermore, I have two reliable references written by two credible publishers, Osprey and Dorling Kindersley whilst the current numbers fluctuate with the one present source in the article - the reference says that the Ottomans' outnumbering the Hungarians by more than 2 to 1 is "an exageration" - so why does the article say the Ottomans were 60,000 and the Hungarians 28,000 - 20,000, hmm? Thats between 2- 3 times greater. So we have inconsistency at the moment - unacceptable! lol but lets be serious here. Furthermoore, according to Grant, the Ottomans third line of cannon and Janissaries held the knights, and John Zapolyai did not do battle - he arrived a day late and then fled to the Ottoman Sultan seeking his permission to be vassal king. Tourskin (talk) 03:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The current number of Ottoman troops relies on three sources, not only on a book about Hungarian decline:

1. Stavrianos, Balkans Since 1453: "...45,000 Turkish regulars supported by 10,000 to 20,000 lightly armed irregulars."

2. Molnár, A Concise History of Hungary: "...50,000 men against 25,000."

3. Nicolle, Hungary and the fall of Eastern Europe: "The Ottomans are said to have numbered over twice as many..."

According to the article the Ottomans were around 50,000 to 65,000 (not 60,000), and the Hungarians 25,000 to 28,000 (not 20,000-28,000). Lysandros (talk) 20:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Its just that believe it or not, Ottoman numbers counted - since the foolish Hungarian cavalry charges found themselves heavily outnumbered when they hit the cannon-chain line, as stated by Grant in his Dorling and Kindersley book.Tourskin (talk) 23:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)