Talk:Battle of Makassar Strait

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[edit] Location and name of the Battle

Wy is it called the Battle of Makassar Strait when the attack of the Japanese aiplanes took place while the striking force was still at the Bali Sea?DirkV 20:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

If nobody objects I will change the title to Battle of Bali Sea. I am taking august first as date. DirkV 16:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The article was recently moved from Battle of Makassar Strait to Battle of Bali Sea. Why was this? There is no apparent reference to the Battle of the Bali Sea, but there is to "Battle of Makassar Strait". In fact, I can't find reference to the Bali Sea at all - does it exist? But, it doesn't matter if the sea does exist, and the battle did take place there, Wikipedia only uses reference information - "correcting" the name like this, I suggest, is original research.
Perhaps I have this all wrong - but there needs to be a reliable sources to show this. Thanks --Merbabu 09:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I will give you a couple references that place the action eather near Kangean or in the Bali Sea. If the attack took place near Kangean the attack couldn't have taken place in the Makassar Strait since its far north of Kangean. If the Batle took place near Kangean it would have been the Java Sea or the Bali Sea. Since there is no reference to this batle being in the Java Sea this location is highly unlikly.
Bali Sea
Bezemer, K. W. L. Zij Vochten Op De Zeven Zeeën. 5de druk Utrecht: W. de Haan N.V., 1964. Calls it the action in the Bali Sea.
Near kangean
[1], shows the location of the marblehead when it was attacked, south of Kangean in the Bali Sea
[2], states that the Amdiralen class destroyers Banckert, Piet Hein and van Ghent where near kangean when they where attacked at February 4.
To me these references rule out the batle took place in Makassar Strait. Other location that are given for this batle are the Flores Sea and Madoera Strait.
So what is the Bali Sea? Its the water north of Bali and Lombok NL wiki ID wiki. The Madoera Strait is the water between the eilands Java and Madoera. The striking force left this water after they left Meinderts droogte [3]. So this leaves only the Flores Sea and the Bali Sea as possible location. The Flores Sea is to far to the east to state the Batle would have taken place near Kangean. Therefore this Batle took place in the Bali Sea. DirkV 11:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no Bali Sea. You've given us a Dutch book from the 1960s and other links that don't mention it. Again, if references say it is known as the Battle of the Makassar Strait, then that is what we report. --Merbabu 11:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Ther is a Bali Sea in Indonesian called Laut Bali. Secondly There is 1 refference in this article calling it ACTION OF MADOERA STRAIT15 FEBRUARY 4 [4] and one calling it Battle of Makassar Strait 4 February 1942 [5]. So there is one refference and not refferences calling it Battle of Makassar strait. So this name is also disputable.DirkV 11:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I speak Indonesian and I know that Laut Bali translates to Bali Sea. But, that doesn't mean it exists. While, there are many references to 'Battle of Makassar Strait' and 'Makassar Strait' in Google, there is zero to 'Battle of Bali Sea' and 'Bali Sea'. This page needs to go back. --Merbabu 11:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC).
How would you call the water north of Bali if there is no Bali Sea? Also the Dutch books describes the Dutch Royal Navy during Second World war and is considerd historically accurate so it should be considerd as reliable source. You don't seem to come proof the ships were in the Makassar Strait. If you change it back we should take a look into the different names trying to find the correct one. Because even in the English wikipedia it is also called Battle of the Flores Sea. So the different option are: Battle of Makassar Strait, Battle of Flores Sea, Battle of Madoera Strait, Battle of Bali Sea. The word Battle can also be replaced by action. Wikipedia should not do everybody else does but be correct!DirkV 12:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not truth, it is verifiabilty. We have many sources saying Makassar Sea, only one (you claim) saying Bali Sea. The NL and ID wikipedia's have no reference on Bali Sea. You can't just make up a name. I don't care if the battle was located on Pluto, the common name and well-referenced name is Battle of Makassar Strait - that is what we thus report. We don't 'correct' anything. We verify. Big difference. PS, it's 'Madura', not Madoera as your old and faulty reference says. --Merbabu 12:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Wel first of al the oe was replaced in Indonesian spelling with a u in 1972 so it doesn't make it faulty only old fashioned and in Dutch we still use oe instead of u. Action of Madoera Strait is also well referenced and describes the same incidint so why are you so focused on the name Batle of Makassar strait? And by the way how is that water north Bali called? If you don't have any other name the it will be Bali Sea for me. DirkV 13:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
As I said, I don't care if the Battle of Makassar Strait was actually on Pluto, if all references call it Battle of Makassar Strait then it doesn't matter where you actually think it happened, then we call it Battle of Makassar. I think you should read WP:OR and google Battle of Bali Sea and Battle of Makassar Strait. Anyway, I will seek to get this changed if you cannot provide better evidence. --Merbabu 13:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Action of Madoera strait is as wel reffered as Battle of Makassar strait and more accurat. So if the references is what is importand I'm willing to let go of Battle of Bali Sea but Action of Madoera strait is a wel refferenced and a better alternative then the Battle of Makassar Strait, because Battle of Makkasar strait is confusing. And keep in mind when counting the search results that if you search for Batlle of Makassar strait you will also find references to Battle of Balikpapan. So why should it be of these two wel refered names the Battle of Makassar strait? I'm in favour of Action/Battle of Madoera Strait because it is closer to the place te actual attack took place and it is wel refered to. DirkV 13:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
By the way I've been looking into the search results for Batle of Makassar Strait and it only returned site refering to this battle not stateting one of the other sites or wikipedia as a source [6] [7]. I can find as least as many that refer to the attack as Action of Madoera strait [8] and [9]. So the name Batlle of Makassar Strait is not as logical as you think it is.DirkV 22:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't know anything about this battle so I don't want to get too involved, but WP:MILHIST#NAME states that the most common name should be used to refer to battles. The use of 'action' in military history article titles is very uncommon, presumably as it isn't very descriptive of what took place, so 'battle' might be a better word. --Nick Dowling 23:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
"Battle of (the) Bali Sea" is a neologism (absolutely zero hits on Google) and the name should be avoided for that reason. In fact, Bali Sea does not seem to be an English language name either. According to every atlas I can get my hands on, Flores Sea is the correct geographical name in English for that body of water and there is no "Bali Sea". Since "Battle of Makassar Strait" is ambiguous, then "Battle of the Flores Sea" is probably the way to go. And that is how the article United States Asiatic Fleet refers to it. Grant | Talk 08:24, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
On books.google.com, "Battle of Makassar Strait" returns 39 results, while "Battle of the Flores Sea" returns only 2, and "Action of Madoera strait" returns 0. On www.google.com (excluding pages containing "wikipedia") its 341 hits for "Battle of Makassar Strait" vs 3 hits for "Battle of the Flores Sea" and 2 hits for "Action of Madoera strait". (Caniago 11:45, 4 August 2007 (UTC))
Ah, my mistake. I thought that DirkV was arguing that "Battle of Makassar Strait" is also used for another battle; after re-reading the debate above, I now see he is arguing that the battle didn't take place in or near Makassar Strait. That really isn't important, as Wikipedia uses common names and naval battles are frequently named after points of land far from the location of the actual battle. So I think it should go back to Battle of Makassar Strait. Grant | Talk 12:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Grant - I didn't have much success in expressing to DirkV that we don't need to 'correct' names (assuming they are 'incorrect'), as that would be WP:OR. Although, he did have a point about there being two "Battles of the Makassar Strait". However, I have checked the Google hits and the overwhelming majority refer to the battle we are talking about here. So, we need to get this page back to it's former title as you suggest. --Merbabu 12:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, are there any objections to this? Grant | Talk 04:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Not from me. The guidelines on article names are pretty clear on the common name for something usually being the best name for an article. --Nick Dowling 05:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

This whole thing gets me realy angry and that is why I haven't reacted for some time. I just wanted to say that I've read a lot books that write about or refere to this battle and that absolutly referes to it as Batle of Makassar strait. But apparantly in wikipedia it doesn't matter. Good luck and go ahead with falsefying and saying this Batle took place in Makassar Strait. DirkV 14:04, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not clear what you are saying. Anyway, it's been verified that it was Makassar Strait by several editors. Remember, wikipedia is not 'truth' but verifiability. And we don't 'correct' information, we report on information. --Merbabu 14:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
There you go again. I can give you a list of books refering or writing about the batle and not calling it Battle of Makassar Strait but something else(Action of Bali Sea, Madoera Strait or Flores Sea). Just give me the title of a book that refers to or describes this batle and not the Batle of Balikpapan as Batle of Makassar Strait. DirkV 17:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, try this one --Merbabu 17:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Why do you think I steped down for two weeks? I just want to see some prove of those sources that call it Batle of Makassar strait. Is that something weird to ask? DirkV 17:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Dirk, (1) common names of battles frequently do not reflect the actual location, (2) Wikipedia policy is to use common names (not to invent them) and (3) even if the name in Dutch were Slag in de Balisee, the common name of the sea among English speakers seems to be "Laut Bali" (and not "Bali Sea"). Grant | Talk 04:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Meijnderts-droogte

Another issue is that "Meijnderts-droogte" also seems to be either a neologism or a very obscure place, as this page is the only hit for it on Google. And it isn't possible to work out from the text what the modern Indonesian place name might be. Grant | Talk 08:24, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, found it. It was "Meinderts Droogte" a.k.a. "Meinderts Reef" and is now known as Karang Mas. It seems there was a Dutch lighthouse there, which has since been abandoned. This is where it is. Grant | Talk 04:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)