Talk:Battle of Los Angeles

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 Battle of Los Angeles was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: September 20, 2007
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[edit] small clean-up needed at end of the article

Someone apparently inserted a section of an official government document en toto to replace a section talking about making a FOIA request. I'm not clear on how I should have gone about cleaning it up to look right. I think someone who knew what they were doing could make a big difference in a couple of minutes just by fixing the source citation at the end of the section "Historical Account From the Office of Air Force History" Kencomer 07:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] dispute

So, who is disputing the content on this page?

Nothing here... so what r u really trying to suggest????

UFO?

Some poeple even think it was a UFO. eh... if its unidentified flying and an object then it is a UFO!

[edit] neutrality

From the edit history, it looks like the POV issue had to do with whether there really were UFOs and/or a cover-up. I think the wording is ok now, although it could use more fact sources. If someone see the article still not neutral, please do use this talk section to point out where. Lisamh 23:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if this is the forum for such things, but my grandfather was not only a witness, but the anti-aircraft crew he was assigned to pumped a few hundred .50 caliber machinegun rounds into the thing. My grandfather was the artist Robert Arbuthnot. At the time he was working for a movie studio and because of that he was manning the anti-aircraft guns on top of the studio's soundstages.
When the "UFO" came close to the studio, my grandfather's anti-aircraft battery gave the thing Hell. One of the gunners was a gentleman nicknamed "The Maestro" because he had been a machinegunner in WWI and he could play his .50 like a violin. Remember that James Cagney gangster film when Cagney ducked behind a brick wall and the wall then disintegrates under machinegun fire? That was the Maestro firing live rounds.
My grandfather, the Maestro, and the rest of the anti-aircraft battery were firing directly into the UFO at a range of about 50 yards. Bullets were bouncing off and shells were exploding against it. By the time the UFO had flown out of range, the anti-aircraft battery was out of ammunition and the officers in charge were firing their sidearms at it.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Coelacanth1938 (talk • contribs) 11:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Japanese fire balloon

It couldn`t have been a Japanese Fire balloon as the first one was launched in 1944. Hence removed. A remote possibility exists that it was a floatplane from a Japanese submarine (a few of those aircraft-carrying submarines lurked around the US West Coast at the time), though the Japanese records show no such flight took place that day.

Veljko Stevanovich 2. Dec 2006. 12:07 UTC+1

Also, it seems unlikely that any aircraft produced at the time (and currently??) could have withstood an AA barrage without being destroyed. Even assuming gross inaccuracy, the odds of enough rounds missing the target to let it survive is remote, and the sources in the article suggest the object was hit repeatly. - Doug, 20:23, 28 Jan 2007, UTC
1)It is very hard to hit even near a 100+mph moving object several miles away with a time-fused shell whose time is being set manually based on eye-measused distance in a cloudy night. 2)I don't think that the photo is faked - those searchlights are simply converging on a part of a cloud hence creating a glowing "object" in the sky impossible to shoot down. Depending on the altittude of the clouds and the current windspeed the "object" may have appeard to be going very fast or slow, especialy if they did not estimate their altittude correctly.
Veljko Stevanovich 17 July 2007. 23:42 UTC+1

[edit] Photo

I'm curious, has anyone tried to match the apparent spot light sources with the actual recorded AA sites? I presume there still exists a map of some sort to locate where the lights should have been. If the apparent positions match the photo positions, its probable the photo is real, as a "faker" would most probably not have invested the time in matching the light sources to real ones. - Doug, 20:09, 28 Jan 2007 UTC

Further, how advanced was the "science" of photo editing in that time frame (1942)? Would it have been possible to "create" the apparent object on a night time shot of the area? - Doug, 20:17, 28 Jan 2007 UTC

[edit] Title

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


The article should be renamed "Battle of Los Angeles"; true description or not, it is what the event is most commonly known as. Plus: "West Coast"? West coast of what? There are many west coasts. Ichormosquito 05:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

-Well it's not necessarily you that has to be convinced. It should be known by its common name and that would reflect by the consensus. So far its 2 to 1. Reginmund 08:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a vote. Ideally, it's a discussion. And "West Coast air raid" is not the subject's common name; Wikipedia pulled the title out of a hat. Ichormosquito 16:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

-Wikipedia hasn't had the honour of practising heresy just yet. The "common name" apparently gets 76 more hits than the current name which is too close to call as to whether or not it is more common. Battle of Los Angeles is also ambiguous considering other events that have occured. With how close the numbers are, "Battle of Los Angeles" isn't necessarily more "common". Again, "Battle of Los Angeles" is also ambiguous. Reginmund 01:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Take another look at those Google hits for "West Coast air raid"; they are almost all copies of or related somehow to this Wikipedia page. It is not a common name. According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events): "If there is a particular common name for the event, it should be used even if it implies a controversial point of view." "Battle of Los Angeles" is the only common name for the event I can find. Hyperbolic though "Battle" may be, Wikipedia editors shouldn't invent a name unless there is no other option. Ichormosquito 03:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
JSTOR turns up nothing for "West Coast air raid"; but in "The Impact of the Second World War on Los Angeles" by Arthur C. Verge, a historian at El Camino College, Verge says the event is today known as "The Battle of Los Angeles". Ichormosquito 03:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
If we want to be serious, there was a real battle of Los Angeles, and this was held not in LA California, but during the War of the Pacific, on March 22, 1880. And please don't speak to me about the number of google-hits: everybody knows that the structure and origins of the web make it higly Americano-centric. That said, I must admit that the current name is not fully satisfying, as it tends to take for granted that there was really an air raid, which is far from assured.--Aldux 14:05, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, but as of now, that "Battle of Los Angeles" doesn't have an article. A search on Google Books turns up a significant number of results relevant to this article's subject, in addition to those concerning the War of the Pacific. Here's one. On Google Books, "West Coast air raid" pulls no relevant results. Keep in mind we are only looking for a common name for the event that took place in 1942. "West Coast air raid" is not a common name, it is the invention of an editor. According to WP:TITLE, an article should take the common name, even if that name is controversial. Ichormosquito 20:41, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment what about the other name listed in the article? Los Angeles air raid. 132.205.44.5 23:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd do with Los Angeles Air Alarm if it were even moderately popular, as the other candidates seem confusing and ambiguous (owing to their inherent innaccuracy - it was neither a battle nor an air raid). But 5 Google hits? I can't understand why the article even mentions it! Is there something I've missed, or another possible title? Andrewa 00:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Los Angeles air alarm would be preferable to West Coast air raid, as it takes care of the descriptive concerns Aldux raised. It's even a little poetic. However, it's not the common name. Only two of those five Google hits are relevant to the subject or not from a copy of this Wikipedia page; both come from wartime. History calls the event The Battle of Los Angeles. Ichormosquito 03:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
And the Boston Tea Party wasn't a tea party. Ichormosquito 03:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Good point, but this event isn't quite in that league in popular culture. Is it really true that History calls the event The Battle of Los Angeles? That should probably be the last word if so, but it seems a bit sweeping, and surprising. Down here we don't call the 1942 Attack on Sydney Harbour the Battle of Sydney Harbour. Perhaps we should... at least in Sydney some shots were fired by both sides. In LA, it seems as if there probably wasn't even an enemy present to shoot or to shoot at. Andrewa 07:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd go for any of the others besides Battle of Los Angeles because it has other meanings. Reginmund 04:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Before anyone closes this, let me advertise the discussion at the two Wikiprojects listed at the top of the talk page. I'm particularly interested in what Southern Californians would have to say on the matter. Ichormosquito 17:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Excellent idea. Andrewa 10:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems clear it needs changed to "Battle of Los Angeles". But someone needs to source the first paragraph to make sure all the names that are listed are actually true. Puddytang 00:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
If it is renamed Battle of Los Angeles, a hatnote should redirect to the Siege of Los Angeles. 132.205.44.5 22:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

There seems to be general agreement that the term used by historians and other sources for this event is "Battle of Los Angeles". This article has been renamed from West Coast air raid to Battle of Los Angeles as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 07:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

From Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Paranormal#Rename request for West Coast air raid:

Support "Battle of Los Angeles" is the most common name for the event. Zagalejo 18:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Although it's too late to affect the closed debate, it further supports the outcome, and I think it's good to note it here for future reference. Andrewa 14:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Support Better late than never, but agree, "Battle of Los Angeles" is its common name. West Coast air raid? West coast of where? Battle of Los Angeles is more descriptive. Mothman wasn't necessarily a moth-man. --Nealparr (talk to me) 19:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Except that there wasn't a battle

Wish I had come across this earlier. Check our Battle article. In this incident, there were a hell of a lot of people on the ground firing all sorts of stuff into the air, but there was no-one firing back. Like our article says, you need "two or more parties wherein each group will seek to defeat the others" to constitute a battle. So, we've had a name change, but it's still no more accurate than before. Moriori 08:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

We were looking for a common name, not necessarily the most accurate one. Ichormosquito 09:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, I wouldn't even have said accurate. What seems logical to us may not always be the way English is spoke, and historical events often have poetic names... you gave the Boston Tea Party as an example above.
While I shared Moriori's disquiet exactly (see above), after vigorous debate I think the outcome is sound in terms of Wikipedia naming conventions and current usage. Until either WP:NC or English usage changes, we shouldn't need to revisit the decision. Of course we can, but it would be better to move on. Andrewa 14:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Moving on doesn't always rectify the problem. The Battle of Los Angeles - which wasn't an actual battle - appears in Attacks on North America during World War II under the subhead "False alarms". Which should be changed? Moriori 01:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Please take into consideration that the article you mention, Attacks on North America during World War II, has been calling the incident Battle of Los Angeles for two years now. The name has a currency that others don't, which I think the discussion above goes a good way toward establishing. Ichormosquito 04:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Agree that moving on doesn't rectify a problem, but I think we've investigated this possible problem thoroughly already. Andrewa 08:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
In this instance "Battle" a noun, not a verb (over simplified, I know, but you get the drift of what I'm saying). Regardless of how you define the word, it is irrelevant whether this was an actual battle. The only thing that is relevant is that it is commonly referenced to as being the "Battle of Los Angeles". It could be called the "hissy fit above LA" for all I care, just so long as that is the most widely recognized name. perfectblue 20:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Well put. Andrewa 21:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not it was a battle, it is CALLED a Battle by most sources, and the fact that civilians died in the missed artillery shots certainly makes it notable. If a consensus is ever universally reached on calling it the 1942 Los Angeles UFO Incident, by all means change it. --Chr.K. 11:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA nomination

I'm currently unaware of who to go to to nominate the article for GA-status, but I say it calls for it, now; rather detailed for an individual UFO case. --Chr.K. 11:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You should post the article at WP:GA under the GA nominees sections. Someone will come and review the article then. --Hdt83 Chat 21:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd suggest you sort your citations out, before someone over at GAC puts your nomination on hold, or outright fails it. You have 3 instances of "THE BATTLE OF LOS ANGELES, Photo analysis by Bruce Maccabee", 3 instances of "Timothy Good; Above Top Secret 1988", and one strange {{cite book}} in the reference section. The first two can be fixed using the <ref name="reference name"> format. You should use uniform reference/citation templates throughout the article. You should also check WP:CITE for details on where citations should be placed, and various templates and formats available to you.
At first glance, I'd also say this article was way under-referenced for GA.
I'm not doing an "official" review here, because I can't be bothered, but you should really fix the above points as soon as you can! Good luck with the nom. Carre 16:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail:

And now a full review - major objections are MOS breaches... references are dreadful, and mostly lacking; see above points for more on reference problems; prose is poor; fair use newspaper image has no fair use rationale; punctuation isn't great.

I notice the above discussion and consensus on the article title, but I still find the idea of calling this a 'battle' ridiculous, but that has nothing to do with this fail. There needs to be a huge amount of work done on this article before, in my opinion, it approaches GA standards. I'd suggest you take it to MILHIST peer review before renominating. Carre 21:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Captured aircraft from Battle of LA event ?

Rumor has it the US army captured one of the supposed aircraft sighted in the "Battle of Los Angeles" as they pursued it crash land in the San Gabriel or San Bernardino mountains east of L.A. The US government might already possessed an "alien aircraft" prior to the 1947 Roswell and 1948 Socorro, N.M. UFO crashes. The incident took place during the midst of World War II when the US west coast feared a Japanese invasion (despite it never occurred) and other theories abound on this was meteorological phenomena since there was high cloudiness that night. The Battle of Los Angeles is an interesting pre-modern UFO era event, but what I heard on the "captured aircraft" rumor relating to the battle of L.A. is something I wish to add and get the sources to include them. + Mike D 26 (talk) 01:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)