Talk:Battle of Brezalauspurc

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[edit] References, name

Please someone add the references for this article. We don't know by what name these battles are mentioned in reliable English language literature. Probably Battle(s) of Pressburg, or Battles of Posonium? Squash Racket (talk) 05:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The name of Bratislava in a Frankish chronicle was Brezalauspurc, meaning Braslav's town. This root is also reflected in the modern name Bratislava. The names Posonium and Pressburg did not exist at that time. The battle is referred to under various names ("of Bratislava", "under Bratislava Castle", "near Bratislava", etc.) in Slovak and Czech sources. If you are inclined so, you are welcome to survey English sources, but I am afraid you will not find much. Tankred (talk) 04:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

hey, I don't think it is possible to find a name for these battles that will be equally accepted by everyone. I think it is agreeable to say that 'Battle of Bratislava' is anachronistic. English scholarly works almost invariably use 'Pressburg' to refer to the pre-WWI history of the city. Also, since you mentioned 'Brezalauspurc' it is worth noting that 'Pressburg' itself is a variant/derivation of that name. The first mention of the Hungarian name (as Poson) is from 1002, around hundred years later, but might have been in use earlier. The German name refers back to Breslav who under the Franks established a fort at the city's present site, the Slovakian name erroneously refers to Bratislav II(?) who was a Moravian ruler, the Hungarian name refers to Poson, the first ispan of the castle.

All in all I think the least controversial choice would be "Battle of Pressburg" since it is the only one that refers to Breslav. But more importantly because it goes along with the convention of using "Pressburg" in English texts in the field of history. - Best 02:28, 07 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.99.167.127 (talk • contribs)

Pressburg is as anachronistic for 907 as Bratislava is. If anyone wants to rename this article, please present your evidence for the widespread use of your preferred name in English sources. Tankred (talk) 14:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I just tried Google Books (searching for Luitpold, Hungarians and Bavarians [1]): Bratislava, Pozsony (Bratislava), east of Vienna, Pressburg, Pressburg. Doesn't make things much clearer I guess. Markussep ^Talk 21:19, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Battle of Brezalauspurc?

If any book is going to shed light on the events close to this battle, it is possibly this one:

• Charles Bowlus (1995). Franks, Moravians and Magyars: the struggle for the middle Danube, 788-907. Univ of Pennsylvania Press, 420. .

Bowlus has a good section on the difficulty of finding sources about the battle, pointing out the unfortunate gaps in the otherwise helpful chronicles. He says there was a 16th century writer named Aventinus who filled in many details about the battle, but either he was using sources that are now lost, or he was making things up. I wonder if anyone besides Bowlus calls it the Battle of Brezalauspurc? A limited preview of Bowlus's book is available on line.

Another website (not a reliable source) was of the opinion that 'Brezalauspurc' and what is now Bratislava may not be the same thing. There is a work called the Salzburg Chronicles, or Annales Iuvavenses, which is where 'Brezalauspurc' seems to be found. But these chronicles were a centuries-later recontruction of earlier documents, so it is not certain how much they can be trusted.

Incidentally, there are enough sources available (even online) to write a much better article on this battle than what we have now! It's just a small matter of time and patience. I imagine that "the Battle of Brezelauspurc" could be a better title, since it avoids deciding the equivalence between this name and later names. More reading would be required before deciding that. EdJohnston (talk) 16:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think also :The Battle of Brezalauspurc is the best soultion . I favour EdJohnston' opinion.Nmate (talk) 17:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The name "battle of brezalauspurc" does not exist, iow. such a title is original research and a violation of any rules. The fact that Brezalauspurc=Bratislava is as sure as the fact that Vindobona=Vienna. There is a lot of literature on this, unfortunately like always, not in English, and what Ed...writes above was solved some 200 years ago, if he was able to read other sources than English ones. For the rest a copy from the summary: the "battle of brezalauspurc" yields exactly 0 google hits or hits in literatue, "battle of pressburg" or of "pozsony" are anachronims just like battle of bratislava, but battle of bratislava has higher frequency. I wonder why nobody stops this Hungarian nationalist editors like Nmate from editting here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.168.233.106 (talk) 14:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

See my 30 May's edit above: several names are used in English literature for the battle site, but Brezalauspurc wasn't one of them (maybe Google Books didn't scan EdJohnstons book yet). It's usual to use contemporary names for battles, e.g. Battle of Alesia, Battle of Gergovia, Battle of Eylau (battle of Bagrationovsk would be very silly in this case). In this case it might be less clear. I lean towards Pressburg, because it's seems the least "bad" option (Brezalauspurc is obscure and unfamiliar, Bratislava is anachronistic, Pozsony probably also). Markussep ^Talk 15:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The correct reasoning should go like this: For the year 907, Pressburg is just as anachronistic as Pozsony or Bratislava, because the town was called Brezalauspurc in German and Preslava in Slavic at that time, there were no other names. The Pozsony variant is thus wrong in any respect. The Brezalauspurc variant WOULD be logical, but it simply is not used. The next logical choice therefore is to use the current name. The Pressburg variant (being neither the correct historical name, nor the current name) could be only used if despite what I have said say 90 % of English (not German) sources would use this wrong name, but I dont think that it is the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.168.233.106 (talk) 22:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Britannica uses Battle of Pressburg and mentions Bratislava in parentheses, so I also think Battle of Pressburg would be the best choice. Squash Racket (talk) 05:21, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV language

The battle is considered the symbolic end of central power in Great Moravia. This is perhaps too strong. The Hungarians were doing well at that time, and they beat the Bavarians. And Great Moravia is already a hypothetical construct, meaning something like 'farther away Moravia.' ("Μεγάλη Μοραβία"). To assume that there really was a central power in Great Moravia is to make a tower of hypotheticals. It would be better to stick to the data. (Our article on Great Moravia is pretty good in admitting the uncertainties).

..a decisive victory at the Battle of Lechfeld, which brought internal stability to German lands. In actuality, the Germans were better organized at that time and they beat the Hungarians. The latter probably didn't think the battle improved stability. EdJohnston (talk) 19:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)