Talk:Battle of Bir-el Harmat

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Good article - but it should have a cleearer structure (background-the battle-consequences). The Jewish Brigade was raised two years after the battle, but its creation was fastened by that event. I have created a counterpart in German --Feliks 17:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. :) However, this is only a translation from the French article on the subject ! I did it as a subpart of my translation of the Bir Hakeim article. I know little to nothing about that issue, feel free to add content to this article, I'd be glad to translate it back into French when you're done ! NicDumZ ~

[edit] RfC: This whole article needs review

Sorry Feliks: I could not disagree more strongly...

Sorry NicDumZ: As an exercise in translation, it is fine; as an exercise in layout it is also fine. But content does matter!

               As an exercise in history it is highly questionable. I don't believe you intended any historiography, but I do think
               that it what has been achieved, and that the incident (rather than you!) needs closer scrutiny before being allowed
               to stand. There are Wiki rules regarding substantiation and verification, and that is as much to protect you the 
               writer(ie. reputation)as to criticise your efforts. Though, perhaps: 'qui aime bien, chatie bien'?

1. The source of the article appears to be a chapter of a book in French. The book is:

  'Les combats d'Israel' by Francois Milles. The chapter is: 'Des juifs dans le desert'.

  This work is not widely available: some extracts of the original (ie. in French) might be useful.
  What references or sources does the author provide at the back, as to the origin of this story? That would certainly help.
  If the author has been correctly translated, then he appears to be writing on a subject of which he has little understanding,
  as it is riddled with basic and fundamental errors.

2.The kernel of the tale appears to be a possible gallant action by a small unit under a putative Major Liebmann. To inflate this

 into an incident that delayed the main trust of the Afrika Korps for 10 days is 'stretching it' ever so slightly...
 If so, it should rightly be lauded as an action on a par with Thermopylae. The story actually reads like fiction: a legendary
 epic.
 There are many such actions (on both sides) in most conflicts. No reason not to record them in Wikipedia, but perhaps a portal
 entitled 'Gallant Actions' is required? It would be classic armchair reading.  

3. Twice the year is given as 1941. This will not work with the Battle of Bir Hakeim (there is even a helpful link), which took

  place in 1942.

4. The identity or provenance of the unit is important, to establish plausibility and credibility. This is given: they come from

  the Jewish Brigade. Again, this will not work. The Jewish Brigade, as noted above, was not formed until late 1944, some 3 -or 
  maybe 2(!) - years later. 
  If the author is that ignorant of, or cavalier with, these facts, it discredits the other details.

5. The mine-warfare experts are: the Royal Engineers (often known as the 'Sappers'). Basic defence contruction (the digging!) was

  done by the 'Pioneers': the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps (AMPC).       

. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Protozoon (talk • contribs) 12:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)