Talk:Battle of Berlin (air)

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Contents 1 Start of the RAF's 'Battle of Berlin' 2 Warcrime vs Battle 3 War Graves Commission cemetery in Charlottenburg 4 Battle of Berlin (air)

[edit] Start of the RAF's 'Battle of Berlin'

While Harris's own 'I was right' book, Bomber Command, does indeed say that the RAF's Battle of Berlin began in November 1943, his then deputy's history, Air Bombardment, reckons the three raids starting in August were the start: they totalled over 1,650 sorties, with 125 aircraft lost.

Their results were generally poor, but had the first three raids been more successful, there probably would not have been a 'two moon' pause before the resumption... and you can bet Harris would have claimed them as the start. As it was, a fourth raid was planned but cancelled at the last moment because of the weather.

Even if you disagree with that date for the start of the campaign, in no sense was 22nd/23rd November the 'first' raid - the 440 Lancasters sent to Berlin on the 18th/19th may not have been an all-out raid - the Halifaxes and Sterlings were sent elsewhere that night - but it undoubtedly marked the (re)start of the battle.

If people want to have an argument about it, let's do it here. If no-one objects, I'll alter the day-by-day timetable in the main article to reflect these facts. Lovingboth 16:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I am going to revert the changes. The battle started in November. Yes there were raids before then by they were not part of the battle (See for example this source: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/nov43.html Entry 18/19 November 1943 "The 'Battle of Berlin' begins"). Although sources may differ I think we should go with Harris which is the one which is used in most secondary sources and is I read also the one used in the official history. --Philip Baird Shearer 18:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Warcrime vs Battle

This was not a battle, this was generally a massmurder of civilians. one of a long list of british warcrimes in germany (it was not only dresden) during ww2. --131.173.252.9 18:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Utter nonsense. It was a strategically successful (read Albert Speer's book where he confirms this fact at length - the author of this awful wiki article should read it too) and tragically necessary operation. Total war was unleashed with the bombing of London and many other British cities from 1940 onward, eventually resulting in 70,000+ fatalities. That is mass murder because it was unprovoked. If you think that the bombing of Germany was morally wrong, then you must also concede that the bombing of Britain was a 'war crime', and yet of that there is no recognition in your stupid comments, which suggests that you are pursuing a political rather than historical agenda. Try looking at it from the point of view of a nation attempting to win a desperate struggle forced upon it by a savage regime that enjoyed almost the full support of its population, instead of this retrospective, sentimental and inappropriate revisionism. Then you have a more credible answer: the bombing of Germany was not only justified in war, it was justly deserved.

JL 21.48 GMT, October 24th 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.253.235 (talk) 20:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a discussion forum. --Nick Dowling 11:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] War Graves Commission cemetery in Charlottenburg

I am reverting the last change which added:

Most of the fallen RAF airmen are buried in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery in Charlottenburg. Many of the graves contain the remains of a seven-man bomber crew

Because it is unsorced and it breaks into a pragraph which is sourced. If a source was provided then we could add it in an appropriate place. --Philip Baird Shearer 16:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The source is Martin Middlebrook's book 'The Berlin Raids' (Cassell 2004) Did you aso revert my text on RAF losses on March 24th 1944? Those facts are accurate and can be verified in any reputable publication about the bomber war. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gloucester (talk • contribs) 16:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Any facts like you added are (of course) welcome, but read Wikipedia:Footnotes. But please not not insert them where you will distance currently cited information from its citation (and/or fasly imply that the facts you are adding are covered by the current citation). Which edit are you talking about [1]? -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Battle of Berlin (air)

Forgive me for asking, but you are aware that Berlin was also attacked from the East by the Red Army Air Force? Since the title says nothing about the RAF, I see no reason that the article can't be expanded to include all air combat above Berlin.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 13:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

This article is about the 'British bombing campaign on Berlin from November 1943 to March 1944' and not the earlier and later raids. I agree that there should be a Bombing of Berlin during World War II article, but this campaign was a discrete series of operations conducted by RAF bomber command, which is that the term 'Battle of Berlin' usually refers to when used to refer to air attacks. Nick Dowling (talk) 10:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

There is another article "Bombing of Berlin in World War II" (I've just create a redirect from Bombing of Berlin during World War II) and the Soviet strategic bombing of Berlin is discussed on the talk page unfortunately to date no reliable sources have been found (see Talk:Bombing of Berlin in World War II#1941 Soviet bombing of Berlin). There is also no reason why the tactical bombing of Berlin during the Battle of Berlin should not be included as well. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Why not just rename this article to reflect the contents?--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 11:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Because it is know as the "Battle of Berlin" in reliable English language sources. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Its known as Battle of Berlin (air)?! I have never seen that. Just call it Allied bombing of Berlin, which is far more often seen. Even RAF bombing of Berlin to be specific. Eventually there ill be enough material for a parent article of Bombing of Berlin with three main article of RAF, USAAF and Red Air Force--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 11:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It's commonly known as the 'Battle of Berlin' or 'Battle for Berlin' - see, for instance Max Hastings' book 'Bomber Command' (which is one of the standard books on Bomber Command). The British mounted a deliberate and prolonged offensive against Berlin during the winter of 1943-44 which is normally considered in isolation from the other, more episodic, raids on Berlin throughout the war. Nick Dowling (talk) 12:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

"(air)" is included because there is also the better known Soviet attack on the city that is also know as the Battle of Berlin, so it was necessary to use "(disambiguation)" as this is the less well known battle. Please read the article, it is not about all the RAF bombing of Berlin during WWII, but about a specific campaign and it involved lots of other targets as well as Berlin (for example the last raid of the battle was against Nuremberg on a night when the RAF lost more service men than they lost during the entire Battle of Britain ([page 117)). The name in the official RAF history (see the quote in the article) and has been used in other sources as well, a Google search of ["Battle of Berlin" November RAF] returns lots of pages. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)