Talk:Battle of Baia

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Good article Battle of Baia has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
An entry from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on March 9, 2007.
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Contents

[edit] Image of the Battle

An image of the baia battle can be found in a 1488 hungarian Chronicle/

[edit] GA on hold

I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria. Please fix the following issues and I'll pass the article:

  1. "The Wallachians rushed to the scene with 7,000 men and together with the Hungarian garrison battled the Moldavians and the Turks for eight days, and managed to defend the town while wounding Stephen for life, in his foot, with a shrapnel." Consider removing "for life", it doesn't seem to flow well within the sentence. Reword to "Stephen in his foot with a shrapnel." with no commas.
  2. "In 1465, when Dracula was imprisoned in Hungary, Stephen again advanced towards Chilia with a large force and siege weapons; but instead of besieging the fortress, he showed the garrison—who favoured the Polish King—a letter in which the King requires them to surrender the fortress;" All of the other hyphens in the article have a space before and after them, change this one also to ensure that the article is uniform (there's another one in the next paragraph). Also, "this they do" should be reworded.
  3. "Moldavia was a Polish fief" Add a wikilink for "fief". Also, all of the single dates and years don't need wikilinks, just ones that include the month, day, and year should be wikilinked.
  4. "The men were told to be prepared for battle and guards were sent to guard strategical points." Change to strategic points.
  5. "there they decided to dig the 500 canons and other treasures" What does dig the canons mean? Elaborate a little more. Also cannons is spelled differently in the infobox, and in this statement, and also in the Preparations for war section. Choose one and stick with it.
  6. "The Moldavian-German Chronicles say that a certain Isaia failed" Remove the bold font.

The article is very informative and doesn't have to many issues that need to be fixed. Please address the above issues within seven days and the article will be passed. If you have any questions or when you are done let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 19:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA passed

I have passed this article according to the requirements of the GA criteria. I removed the wikilinks for the single years and dates, take a look at my change so you can see what I did. Good job on the article, and make sure it maintains its high quality by ensuring that all new information is properly sourced. If you have the time please consider reviewing an article or two at GAC to help with the large backlog. Again, good job and happy editing! --Nehrams2020 19:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I forgot about the wikilinks for the single years. I understand this is relatively a new rule. I don't think it existed at the time when I worked on the article. --Thus Spake Anittas 19:34, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Sweeps Review: Pass

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. For some reason, this article looks familiar... Anyway, I reviewed the recent contributions and it hasn't decrease in quality since I passed it in June. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I made a minor correction, but there were no major problems with the article. Just a quick note, if you can, determine if wagons is spelled that way as in the source (in "huge booty of tents, waggons and guns,"), if not it may just be a misspelling. Also, consider creating an article for Moldavian-Hungarian Wars (as seen in the infobox) if you have enough information that is properly sourced. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have edited the article history to reflect this review. Regards, --Nehrams2020 04:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The Annals were translated to British English, which is the reason why wagons is spelled with two "g." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anittas (talk • contribs) 06:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moldavian victory?

In fact it was a victory claimed by both sides ... see the Chronicles of Bonfinius and Gaspar Heltai. Corvinus was wounded and the Hungarian invasion of Moldavia was halted. The ensigns of the Hungarians were sent to Casimir, the Moldavian flags were flied in the Our Lady Church in Buda. Later the Moldavian voivode accepted the Hungarian supremacy.

  • Causes: the nominal aim for the Kingdom of Hungary was to punish Stephen for his supposed interference in a anti-Matthias rebellion in Transylvania. and the campaign was undertaken to replace the unfriendly pro-Casimir Moldavian voivode with a Hungarian puppet. --fz22 20:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, at the Night Attack, Mehmed also claimed victory and even held a festivity in honour of his victory against Dracula, but that doesn't make it true. When it comes to this battle, all sources (which are included) claim a Moldavian victory, except for one Hungarian source. I believe it was Antonius who wrote that Matthias won a great victory at Baia. He seems to have forgotten to mention the three arrows he got in his back. Still, I believe that the Hungarian source should be mentioned, so go ahead and do so; but because of so many sources describing the Moldavian victory, the subject is not deemed to be a controversial one. The cause is described very well in the article. Stephen supported the revolt because of you allowing Aron to stay there; but as the article mentions, the other cause is Stephen's agression in retaking Chilia. --Thus Spake Anittas 23:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
There are several Hungarian sources: Jannus Pannonius, Bonfinius, Thuróczy, Heltai ... According to them Stefan was captured (later escaped) and the rest of the Moldavian army runaway ... The number of Hungarian army is also overestimated (numbered ~15,000 men) they lost around 4000 men, mostly Szekelys and the light cavalry. The Moldavian army lost around 7000 men. --fz22 14:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
No offence, but have you read the article? Stephen being captured is mentioned in the article and it is sourced, but that was a prelude to the battle. The victory came afterwards and it is that which counts. You are more than welcome to add your sources and if you do, I hope you make it to fit into the context. I hope that the sources you mentioned above are contemporary sources. If they are modern sources, then they are probably based on the contemporary chronicle by Antonius. All that you have mentioned above is mentioned in the article. --Thus Spake Anittas 14:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Sure, however rereading my last post it seems quite confusing for myself too :)) So according to the Hungarian contemporary sources, Matthias won the battle however it was a Pyrrhic victory ... The battle was tactically inconclusive but it stopped the Hungarian invasion. the hungarian army remained in Baia for three days after the battle, when they started to retreat toward Transylvania ... 500 cannons? Not even the Ottoman Empire owned such a huge artilery ...--fz22 18:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I will check the 500 cannons source tomorrow. Meanwhile, do you have a source for the Hungarians remaining in Baia for three days? What were the Moldavians up to while the Hungarians remained in Baia? It seems to me that if Matthias is seriously injured, then there is no point in remaining in Moldavia for three days. --Thus Spake Anittas 19:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
http://www.stefancelmare.ro/cronici-straine.htm#Chronica%20Hungarorum unfortunately only in Romanian ... --fz22 22:47, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, in Romanian. Luckly, you speak Romanian, so you have an advantage to that. I checked the source and it mentions 500 cannons. It does sound a bit exagerated, but I can't really say. I would like to ask you not to remove sourced information about the size of the troops. I can't think of any good reason on why you would do such a thing. --Thus Spake Anittas 17:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I think it is more important to have an accurate military infobox raither than if it is sourced or not ... the sources, written during the Renaissance, are very exaggerated regarding battles ... eg. they speak about some 200,000 or 300,000 Ottomans in 1526 (battle of mohacs) ... But the correct number is far smaller, "only" 40-50,000 ... And there are some good estimations regarding the Hungarian forces during this campaign and considering the Hungarian military and logistical system ... --fz22 18:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I understand that. They also exaggerated the size of the Ottoman army during the Night Attack. In fact, even Mehmed exaggerated them; however, in this case, the size is not deemed as exaggerated. A forty-thousand Hungarian army is not unrealistic at all. --Thus Spake Anittas 19:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Look, in the Middle age, the Kingdom of Hungary - when the population of the its biggest cities numbered only around 5000, such a huge army ... it was impossible, to form ... for the simplest reason that there was not enough food to feed them, especialy in winter time. (also against the Ottomans, the main problem was not just its huge military strength but logistically was insolvable assembling an army before reaping and keeping them together for more then a month - not even in a prolific year). Moreover in the 15th century the Szekely's army numbered around 8-10,000 armed men, but only 2/3 of them could be called up in a campaign (read King Sigismund's Military Laws-Reforms from 1429-1430). The rebellion of the Transylvanian nobles had been put down recently so these banderias were missing too. The 500 cannon legend is also a joke, not just because Matthias favored the obsolete catapults over the cannons, but there was no European power possessing such a huge artillery ... First and last this is only a Polish propaganda of those times (Casimir was Matthias' "mortal enemy"). Regards --fz22 09:31, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I reverted your changes again. Let's compromise. I removed the number of cannons and mention them in the article as an uncertain number. You can add your sources to the article, saying that according to some Hungarian sources, the number could not have been higher than X, but I will not allow you to remove my sources. Please understand that. As for your estimations that Hungary could not gather 40,000 men, I say it's rubish. In 1330, more than a century earlier, they invaded Wallachia with 30,000. --Thus Spake Anittas 16:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I did not remove any of "your" sources this time. Funny but only sources about Hungarian victory was missing, so far, and when I started to add them to the article you've deleted them.
Ok, let's compromise:
1. According to CHRONICA HUNGARORUM by Ioannes de Thurocz ; EPITOME RERUM HUNGARICARUM by Petrus Ranzanus amd HISTORIA PANNONICA AB ORIGINE GENTIS AD ANNUM 1495 by Antonius Bonfinius the battle ended with a Hungarian victory with a less number of casualties.
2. Eg. In the Hungarian-Polish-Czech war the Hungarian army numbered only around 8000 men + several thousand light cavalry led by Stephen Bathory sent to attack the Kingdom of Poland; in the Battle of Breadfield (my next target to modify:)) casualties were 6000 Ottoman /3000 Hungarian soldier. And this was one of the bloodiest battle in the pre-Mohacs period.
3. It is not rubbish at all ... the KoH's ground forces had c. 85,000 troops located in three districts (Transylvania, Southern parts of the Kingdom - against Ottomans, and the Western border - against the Emperor, King Casimir, the Hussites, the Czecks). Do you really think Matthias took out of the country almost half of his power when during his rule he was engaged in campaigns -almost constantly - against two major world power?? According to Hungarian scholars he used only the Szekelys (c 6,000 out of a total of 10,000 - according to the Military Laws), Saxons and the voivode's forces + several thousands form his royal banderias. He could have come in Moldova from many directions (as it happened in 1485 against Austria + see above p2.) but Matthias did not want to split his forces, etc, etc, ... --fz22 22:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I've restored your edits, but I'm not really pleased with how this looks. From what I understand, Regni Hungarici Historia, which I suppose was a Hungarian contemporary chronicle, claimed Moldavian victory. That is not consistent with what the other Hungarian chronicles claim. In my opinion, those chronicles lie, because all the other sources are consistent with what transpired. Corvinus himself was a liar, also. He lied on numerous ocassions, including in 1476 when a storm had sank Ottoman ships, to which he claimed to have sank. He and his court had no credibility and both Dluguzs and the Vatican realized that, but it was too late. The Pope granted him money for that. The Moldavians took chase after the Hungarians and wanted to block them in, and slaughter them; but as usual, a buta Vlach helped them escape, for which he was executed for. That is included in the article. If the Hungarians were on the run and the Moldavians were chasing them, do you think the Hungarians can claim victory? Yeah, I know about the issue between Poles and Hungarians at the time, but I don't think the Poles would blantly lie like this. When Stephen invaded southern Poland and defeated them in battle, enslaving over 100,000, the Poles didn't say that Stephen came with 1,000,000 troops. --Thus Spake Anittas 00:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Addentum: I'm guessing that Corvinus sent Bathory to invade Poland with only some 8,000 only to operate in Poland. They did this on other occasions, also, with mixed results: once they invaded Ottoman territory and started to pillage; and another time, in 1474, Blasius Magyar, the voivode of Transylvania, invaded Wallachia with some 6,000 troops. Those operations were meant to achieve a temporary objective; in the case of Wallachia, it wanted to install Tepelus on the throne. However, at Baia, the Hungarians wanted to subdue Moldavia completely, making it their vassal--not just on papper, but in practice, also. You don't invade enemy territory with some 10,000 troops to achieve that...Moldavia was not Bosnia. You could just as well have stayed home, if you wanted to subdue the country with only 10,000 troops. I mean, what would be the point? You must have realized that we could repell such a force. We did this many times before. --Thus Spake Anittas 00:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Liar? sure, but you must be naive to think that this was the most typical quality of a 15th century ruler. they were motivated by ambitions and to augment their power and lands. Moreover Hunyadi was a famous shapeshifter, a despotic (bent toward despotism), bossy ruler :) too ...
the cronicle of Istvanffy was written in the 17th century, http://www.sosantikvarium.hu/kep/konyv_5569_5.jpg ... --fz22 10:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, I haven't heard anyone accuse Stephen for making such manipulations, but anyway, I still don't get it: how can you run for your life, and claim victory? That reminds me of this infamous Monty Python sketch. --Thus Spake Anittas 20:57, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
This was not a unique case. One thing is to win a battle, another to win the campaign, but there is no connection whether the leader is wounded or maybe killed. This is why i said it was a Pyrrhic victory ... --fz22 21:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Transylvanian rebelion vs 400,000 florins

According to Hungarian sources the rebellion (of Count Szapolyai of Szepes, and of John Szentgyorgyi voivode of Transylvania) was crushed authoritatively almost immediately, there were no hard times for the King ... and to treat the Transylvanian nobles with scorn their ransom was cut to 66 Florins ... but this happened before the Moldavian campaign ... One year later the King forgave them ... I've never heard of 400,000 florins. As far as I know It was impossible to collect such a huge amount of gold from Transylvania. (the annual revenues of Hunyadi was around 800,000 florins) ... regards --fz22 09:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The source is Jan Dlugozs. I will add it to the section. Here is the source for that claim and also for the claim on 500 guns. If you want to buy the book, let me know and I will refer you to a place where you can order it online.

When, moving on, the Hungarians again reach the hills they find the road barricaded with tree-trunks and, after burning their three-horse waggons and burying all 500 of their guns, so as to deny them to the enemy, they manage to escape. Some of the Hungarian standards are captured and these are sent to King Casimir in Wilno as proof of Stephen's victory, which has provided a huge booty of tents, waggons and guns. Back in Hungary, the King imposes a fine of 400,000 florins, to be paid in gold, on the knights and citizens of Transylvania for having deserted him. This money he uses to organize another and larger army, mainly of foreign mercenaries.

And just because you disagree with the source doesn't mean that we shall remove it. Perhaps you would want me to blank the whole page, but it ain't happening. --Thus Spake Anittas 15:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

you are wrong ... i never had the slightest intention to remove a reference to a source ... Dlugosz sources were wrong ... 400,000 florin was a fabulous wealth in the mid 15th ... I've rechecked the annual revenue of Hunyadi. It was only 500,000-600,000 florins (in a lucky year could run high to 900,000). (While the King of France had 1,8 million-4 million) The price payed by Hunyadi for the Holy Crown was "only" 80,000 (considered to be also a huge sum) ... --fz22 17:44, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, sure, everyone was wrong. Corvinus spent his 200,000 florins that he received from the pope just to arrange or his marriage with some princess, instead of investing the money in defending the region from the Ottomans, so I wonder just how much 400k was. You keep talking about Hunyady, but that was an earlier era. --Thus Spake Anittas 17:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Can you bring me sources on this emblezzement? And what about your "anti Ottoman defence" complaint I don't think you would be pleased with it :) (IMO the only chance to stop the Ottomans was during King Sigismund, at the line of the Danube, by exterminating the Romanian wobly boiars, and establishing a buffer zone securing the Danube with free soldier elements, like the Szeklers, Cumans, and later the Serbs) ... --fz22 (talk) 11:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I speak about King Matthias ... he never called himself Corvinus. Not even by his Hungarian fellow contemporaries. His name was Hunyadi Matyas ... But this is offtopic here, you can use Corvinus as well, i will understand it :) ... Can you bring me a source for this 200,000 florins_ It was fabulous trust me (even Matthias life worth about 80,000) ... IMO Matthias did everything possible in order to save the country. --fz22 19:47, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split from A-Class review

Hi, as part of the A-Class review, I have a few issues.

  • The Hungarian ambition of seizing control over Moldavia did not end there This does not follow on from anything and seems a bit pov ish, could you make it a bit more neutral, and relevant.Y Done
  • divide the country between them two Not good grammatically.Y Done
  • The Wallachians rushed to the scene with 7,000 men and together with the Hungarian garrison battled the Moldavians and the Turks for eight days, defeating them and wounding Stephen in his foot with a shrapnel[17]-an injury which would hasten his death. Can this not be split up into different sentences, the structure at the moment is not very good.
    • Not really, the structure of the sentence would become even worse. Why actually the structure is not good at the moment?
  • can the See also hatnote be included in the article.
    • where?
  • The background might need a subsection to split it up.Y Done
  • and demanded Stephen to leave it over to him. This needs to be reworded.Y Done
  • started a terrible uprising in which Corvinus had a difficult time in putting an end to Needs rewording, and remove the terrible per WP:WEASEL.Y Done
  • so the Moldavians could not lay their hands on them. ???
    • I can't find this, could you help me please?
  • Per WP:MOSNUM, individual dates such as 10 January should be linked, e.g. 10 January.Y Done

Generally, there seems to be a slight bias in the article, just needs a run-through. Woodym555 17:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] strenght2 (Hungarian army)

I think even this 15-20,000 men army is an overestimation ... pure maths:

  • it was calculated that tha army of William the Conqueror (7000 men + 3000 horse) needed 4000t of nutritment / month.
  • the lenght of the army (with just 10,000 horsemen x 3 horses each) was more than 20km, without wagons (how many? John of Hunyadi army's had 5000 wagons during the Long Campaign) ... impossible to supervise ...--fz22 (talk) 09:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)