Talk:Battle of Algeciras Bay

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Just re-read Master and Commander, spurred me to flesh out the details in this article a bit. Only online reference I could find is kinda dodgy, anyone have anything more firm? I'm sure the facts are right, but it would be nice to have better references. Burtonpe 17:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] England lost the battle!

In fact, the English fleet lost the battle. Admiral Saumarez wanted to make a battle as the battle of Aboukir, but did not consider spanish gunboats and the coastal artillery batteries that to turn the battle a disaster for the British.

Not accurate, really. The first part of the battle, which occurred in the bay itself, was indeed a defeat for the British, but as the article states in the introduction, it was a battle of two parts, and in the second the British were victorious, nullifying any particular strategic gains the French/Spanish had made by their own victory. Martocticvs 18:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Strange, isn't it, how every naval action where the english didn't cover themselves with glory is classified (in English source) as "the first part of a two-part battle"?--Guillaume Hébert-Jodoin 18:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, what do the French and Spanish call that battle that the British consider to be the Battle of Algeciras Bay Part 2? Dabbler 18:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Their wiki don't give a particular name to the second battle (but both clearly consider it separate, as they give the franco-spanish fleet victorious for the "Battle of Algeciras" (neither use "bay")) , at least. It seems to be considered much like a submarine ambush some days after the main battle would be in World War II terms. The two different perspective on whether the actions of the Superb are part of the battle should probably be noted. I have seen some (french) sites refer to the "two-part battle" as the Algeciras Campaign (which they acknowledge as an overall english victory)--Guillaume Hébert-Jodoin 19:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

So what we have is a historical nomenclature difference which, admittedly, quite probably depends on a POV and the final result. However, using the British nomenclature in an English Wikipedia article is not POV, that is the way the battle(s) are named in the reference materials. Dabbler 19:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

It would, I think, be important however to note the different schools of thought in the article on whether this is one or two battle, and add a footnote to the "British victory" mention clarifying that there were two parts, and that while the British won overall, they lost the first part.--Guillaume Hébert-Jodoin 19:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

This is the very first sentence of the article "The Battle of Algeciras Bay was in fact two separate battles between an allied French-Spanish fleet and the British near Gibraltar in July 1801." Reading the description, of the first battle, no one would conclude that it was a British victory. So I think that the issue is already addressed. However I have added an extra bit to the lead and changed the infobox. Dabbler 20:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems reasonable enough to me. --Guillaume Hébert-Jodoin 21:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Frigates of the Gut of Gibraltar

Where do the "La Libre (?) 40 (Captain Proteau)" and "Le Vautour 14 (?) (Captain Kemel)" come from ? I have been unable to confirm involvement of any such ships with my bibliography... just curious. Rama 22:18, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German Article

The German Article was separated in two battles, so there are two Articles. Would that not also usefull for this Article too??--Wildcard81 (talk) 15:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

In British history, they are treated as two phases of the same battle whether rightly or wrongly in logic. There is no separate name for the second phase this is made clear in this article. Dabbler (talk) 15:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, suum cuique, it was only a idea. --Wildcard81 (talk) 20:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)