Talk:Battle of Alesia

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Contents

[edit] Titus Labenius?

Forgive me, but I seem to be unable to shake from my mind that it was Titus Labenius, and not Annthony who rode with Trebonius. Can anyone settle this?

[edit] Pictures

As I have written in the nomination discussion, this article can use more pics. I have written to the owners of sites I linked in external, and here are the responces so far: --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:36, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

  • from [1]: Thank you! - but hardly one of those images is properly licensed from a legal standpoint. They are things I found on the Web, or borrowed (with permission) from others who almost certainly had found them somewhere else!
  • from [2] You may use any of my photos licence-free, but some of the depicted images belong to the museum "The Archéodrome de Bourgogne". You can find information about them on [3]. So please contact them instead. I don't know anything about the copyright methods you mentioned. I'd be obliged if you mentioned my website [4] in return. And please use the French name for that famous site: Alésia instead of

This is great! I'll upload one of the photos from (2). Thanks! muriel@pt 10:12, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] But I don't know where Aleshia ish!

But I don't know where Aleshia ish! No one knowsh where Aleshia ish! — JIP | Talk 10:45, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Alesia´s location ish known and described in the text: you can even visit the reconstructed fortifications. muriel@pt 11:47, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alesia and Asterix

The Asterix album Asterix and the Chieftain's Shield really does mention the battle of Alesia. I think it's worth mentioning here, in some footnote or something.

The reason for all the "sh"'s is that in the album, all the Gergovians really shpeak like thish. (At least in the English and Finnish versions anyway, I haven't read the French original.) — JIP | Talk 16:09, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • Mentioning Asterix album as a worthy reference: i hope that's a joke. muriel@pt 14:17, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • If the article about Citizen Kane can include places where Citizen Kane is mentioned, or referred to, why can't this article? It's not as if I'm trying to use Asterix and the Chieftain's Shield as a reference, or background research, for the Battle of Alesia. It's the other way around: the battle of Alesia is background information for the album! Tell me which part of the Wikipedia rules prevent mentioning that the battle of Alesia is so famous that even comic books talk about it? — JIP | Talk 16:51, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
JPL: Mentioning something to the article about the reference might be useful. Adding the following is not:
The Asterix album Asterix and the Chieftain's Shield mentions the Battle of Alesia, but I'm not allowed to say that here, although it should be obvious that I am not basing any information in this article itself on the contents of the album (which is a fictional work, produced in the 20th century, and is copyrighted material).
Please don't add comments like that to the article. If you have a complaint or an issue express them here. If you want to write something serious about references to the battle in the Asterix comic, then please do so. But I would recommend that you propose a draft here first. In any case be prepared to discuss and defend if necessary what you write, on the talk page here. Paul August ☎ 19:21, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
Sorry about that. It was late at night when I wrote that, and I was already annoyed by the trivial dismissal of my earlier version. I have since written a better version (see below) and it seems to be OK. BTW, it's "JIP", not "JPL". — JIP | Talk 09:14, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for apologizing. We all get annoyed sometimes, but it's wholly inappropriate to express your annoyance in the main article space. As regards to what it was you were annoyed with, which of your edits do you think was subjected to a "trivial dismissal"? Your first edit, inserted the following qualification concerning the proposed location of the battle:
"although no one knowsh exactly where Aleshia ish". [5]
This seemed to me, at the time, unnecessary (the article already says "situated probably at …") or overly strong (there is lots of evidence for the proposed site), not to mention poorly spelled. However, as it turns out, it was apparently some kind of in-joke reference to the Asterix comic. Your second edit was to add a new section titled "Notesh", with the following text:
"In the Ashterix album Ashterix and the Chieftain'sh Shield, Ashterix ashksh an old Gergovian warrior about the battle of Aleshia. However, inshtead of anshwering him, the warrior getsh mad and shaysh that no one knowsh where Aleshia ish." [6]
It was hard to know what to make of this. I wondered, was this some prankish attempt at humor? Was the editor drunk? Were these "misspellings" intentional? It was hard to take either of these edits very seriously. It now seems (as you indicate below) that they were not meant to be entirely serious. Edits of this kind are inappropriate — While we should try to have fun doing it, writing this encyclopedia is serious business. If you make un-serious edits you should expect them to be dismissed. By the way, sorry about the name typo (are you sure you are not JPL?) Paul August ☎ 16:10, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
I agree that my earlier edits were not serious. To address your question about trivial dismissal, I was referring to User:Muriel Gottrop's comment:
  • Mentioning Asterix album as a worthy reference: i hope that's a joke. muriel@pt 14:17, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This made me angry, because as I understood it, Muriel Gottrop misunderstood me completely. I think she thought I was trying to use the Asterix album as background research for the article itself, when it was obvious it was the other way around - the battle of Alesia inspired the album. I have left an explanation on her talk page but she has not yet responded. — JIP | Talk 16:31, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, it may have been "obvious" to you what you meant, but it wasn't obvious to me, and if Muriel misunderstood you, then obviously it wasn't obvious to her either. Your previous edits had made it difficult to take your subsequent comments completely at face value. Not only do facetious statements, tend to get dismissed, trivially or otherwise, they also lead to being misunderstood, so I don't find it surprising that Muriel may have misunderstood you. Moreover that someone misunderstands you doesn't seem like a good reason to get angry. Paul August ☎ 17:49, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

I have now made my third, and second serious, attempt at mentioning the Asterix album. This time I have tried to avoid any Asterix in-jokes. I hope this is good enough for an encyclopedic article. And, for the last time, it's the battle of Alesia that came first, and the Asterix album that came after that! Goscinny and Uderzo never intended to do serious research about the battle of Alesia, instead they only paid homage to it! — JIP | Talk 19:11, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ambiguity over how long it took to build the siege walls?

There is ambiguity over how long it took to build the siege walls. This article says 3 weeks while Alesia_(city) says 6 weeks. How would one know anyway? Old Roman military records? --Kaze0010 00:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Possibly. But if I remember right estimates are based on the size of the structure (whose precise length, characteristics and locations are fully known at Alise Sainte Reine), estimates of how much work and loads can be carried by soldiers, estimates of what percentage of the contingent actually participated in the fortification work themselves, depth of trenches as seen onsite (compensated for the change in terrain levels as scraped by 2000 years of agriculture) the available amount of wood in the surroundings and the time it takes to cut it and displace it. So it's reasonable to assert that there is some uncertainty over this. Nevertheless, these arguments and estimates were also used by Reddé (see ref. below) to show that full scale fortifications such as the classical representation at the Archeodrome de Beaune could not possibly have been carried out over the entire structure, which is consistent with archeological findings showing not one but several fortification variants, according to terrain nature and orientation, proximity to camps, strategic importance... which makes perfect sense if you think of it as a resource management problem. Also Caesar's main description mentions a watered trench in his fortification which obviously could only take place at a specific place in the valley, between the two streams. It is also recently believed that watch-towers were only one story high instead of several (as shown on the Beaune picture), based on the depth of pillar holes and estimates of wood requirements and availability on location, if I remember right.

--jsfranco 21 Aug 2006 18:09 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable content

This article portrays ongoing controversy over the localization of the site. However, it is my strong impression that this does not reflect the current scientific consensus, which shows very little doubt over the location at Alise Sainte Reine. It would help if more historians contributed to this article. The bias in this article is revealed by the bibliography, as many of the pointers lead to sites and books of the Jura standpoint.

This article appears to be translated from the French article [7]. Although still not reflecting the scientific consensus, the French article has been edited since (not by me), with a somewhat more balanced bibliography and a more detailed account of findings at Alise Sainte Reine. These include the discovery of the complete fortification system (inner and outer line specific to this battle), from aerial archeology (work of René Goguey) and excavation, including military camps, with comma shaped entrances specific to the Roman army; a vast collection of excavated materials, weapons, tools used to build the fortifications; traces of the holes where the base of four observation tower pillars once stood at several excavation sites; a broad range of coins and monetary instruments reflecting both armies' many geographical origins, consistently dated of the era; a sling bullet with initials Ti. Lab. carved on it (Titus Labienus, Cesar's first general in this battle); a dated torn piece of a roman leather tent in one of the camps; excavated portions of trench holes filled with consistent archeological material; detailed and repeatable findings of Cesar's trap systems with several variants adapted to soft/rocky terrains and strategic importance; etc. The oppidum also happens to be covered with burried ruins of a post-era Roman-Gallic city (some photos of archeological material found there at [8]), where large excavations took and are still taking place, revealing some pre-war Gallic foundations. An inscription "In Alisiia" was also found there (as seen on this page [9]).

No equivalent large scale findings of Cesar's presence or even the Gallic presence on the oppidum can be seen at the Jura site, contrary to what is written in this article, despite many test excavations (it is said 31 in the French wikipedia source). One accidental discovery in one spot by a local farmer in the seventies led to an excavation by Berthier of some archeological material which was interpreted to be Roman fortifications, but has been unrepeated. What is said to be a straight line defensive trench in the valley from an instrumented aerial survey, cannot be distinguished from a geological break in terrain or an ancient irrigation canal even with goodwill. Some archeological material including nails and tools are on display, whose number and relation to the conflict and era are dubious. Dion Cassius once wrote that Alesia was in Sequanie (actual Jura). But he's a historian relating second hand accounts three centuries after the battle. That's about it. Nothing on the oppidum. Although animated by a genuine passion for history and ancient latin texts, the lady at this museum did not convince me: the two cases are no match.

Convincing discussions, photographies of the mentionned evidence, and argumentations appear in Reddé's work, a leader of the latest excavation campaigns by the franco-german team at Alise Sainte Reine from 1991 to 1997. Perhaps some of this documentation can make its way in here if copyright issues are resolved. (M. Reddé, Alésia - L'archéologie face à l'imaginaire, Errance - Hauts lieux de l'Histoire, Paris, 2003). This includes explainations about the topography of the Alise site, and why it is consistent with Cesar's accounts. This is the part that caused much of the controversy which can lead one to doubt - if one forgets the overwhelming body of evidence everywhere else.

I am not a historian, but out of personal interest for the era and curiosity, I visited in 2003 both the Alesia museum at Alise Sainte Reine, Cote d'Or and the Institut Vitruve in Syam, Jura, and read some of the available material. I also met and discussed with the museum curator at Alise Sainte Reine, Claude Grapin. The whole experience left very little doubt in my mind.

Hope this helps.

jsfranco@laposte 21 Aug 2006

Note: for French speaking contributors to this article, a full-length discussion appears on the French wikipedia article discussion page [10]. To clarify the meaning of the above paragraph I added: although most parts in this article are worthy of the FA-rating, the controversial parts that are notably biased, mis-represent the actual state of research, and need change are: the sentence "situated probably at Chaux-des-Crotenay (in Jura in modern France). Earlier research located Alesia atop Mont Auxois, above modern Alise-Sainte-Reine in France, but this location - it is said - does not fit Caesar's description of the battle. Alise-Sainte-Reine is still the official location of Alesia." The hypothesis of location at Chaux-des-Crotenay dates from a 1963 thesis by A. Berthier and echoes popular regional controversy in France, dating back to the 19th century. The most recent peer-reviewed research by Reddé's franco-german archeology team in the nineties and other research on the Alise oppidum fully confirms the location at Alise-Sainte-Reine, by unvealing a murus gallicus on the oppidum, confirming the structure of the siege, camp locations, and confirming the findings and documentation left of Napoleon III-era research at various excavation sites at Alise.

Also in the following paragaph: "Uncertainty has nevertheless persisted, with questions being raised about the validity of Alise-Sainte-Reine's claim. For example, the topography of the area - it is allegedly said - does not fit with Caesar's description. The site is also too small to accommodate even revised estimates of 80,000 men with the Gallic infantry, along with cavalry and additional personnel." These are arguments of Berthier's thesis. The false topography allegations implicitely refer to Berthier's "police-sketch" theory of Alesia topography. These arguments have been proven false by Reddé's research - see bibliography below. Discussion with a historian on the French site also reveal that the Chaux-des-Crotenay site's size and configuration would be in complete contradiction with respect to all other known oppida, like for example the contemporary Arvern capital Gergovia (see [11]).

The next paragraph is also biased: "Another theory supports the location of the battle at Chaux-des-Crotenay at the gate of the Jura mountains. Preliminary researches in Chaux-de-Crotenay unveiled a complete system of Roman fortifications in good fit with Caesar's description of the site. However, further archaeological research is needed to definitively confirm the location of Alesia.". Note that the sentence "Preliminary researches in Chaux-de-Crotenay unveiled a complete system of Roman fortifications in good fit with Caesar's description of the site" is blatently and verifiably false, and again implicitely refers to Berthier's views and interpretations of Ceasar's description and the "police sketch" theory.

The bias in the bibliography is evident, with a majority of non-peer reviewed private publications by the people supporting Berthier's views, including Danielle Porte, and websites in connection to the Vitruve Institute founded by Berthier and his supporters.

Scientific, internationally peer-reviewed research from the last 40 years and arguments are fully documented - see the French article's biography:

  • J.-B. Colbert de Beaulieu, « Epilogue numismatique de la question d'Alésia », Mélanges d'archéologie et d'histoire offerts à André Piganiol, Paris, 1966, p. 321-342 et « Les Monnaies de bronze de Vercingétorix : faits et critique », Cahiers numismatiques, 1967, n° 13-déc. - p. 356-372.
  • Collectif, Vercingétorix et Alésia, catalogue de l'exposition des Antiquités nationales, Paris, 1994.
  • C. Goudineau, César et la Gaule, Errance, Paris, 1990 et Points-Seuil, Paris, 2000 (synthèse sur la Guerre des Gaules).
  • V. Kruta, articles Alésia et Alise-Sainte-Reine in V. Kruta, Les Celtes, Histoire et dictionnaire, Bouquins, Paris, 2000, pp. 400-401.
  • J. Le Gall, Les fouilles d'Alise-Sainte-Reine 1861-1865, Institut de France, Paris, 1989 (les fouilles du Second-Empire).
  • S. Lewuillon, Vercingétorix ou le mirage d'Alésia, Paris, Complexe, 1999 (mise en perspective et analyse sociale, anthropologique et politique de la guerre des Gaules)
  • M. Reddé (dir.) et alii,, Fouilles et recherches franco-allemandes sur les travaux militaires romains autour du mont Auxois (1991-1997), Mémoire de l'académie des inscriptions, 2 vol., Paris, 2001 (publication scientifique des fouilles d'Alise).
  • M. Reddé, Alésia - L'archéologie face à l'imaginaire, Errance - Hauts lieux de l'Histoire, Paris, 2003 (discussion de la localisation, présentation des fouilles d'Alise).
  • J.-L. Voisin, article Alésia, in J. Tulard éd., Dictionnaire du Second Empire, Paris, 1995, pp. 24-27.

jsfranco@laposte 27 Aug 2006 22:32 (CET) Then why don't you be bold and edit the article, accordingly ? I-do-do-you? 17:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aerial Photography

I have removed a remark about the identification of the ancient site by aerial photography after a check at the forum of RomanArmy.Com

[edit] Needs work

This article, like many others in the ancient history/warfare series, is not written from an expert perspective, and is riddled with errors of varying seriousness, with several outright howlers. For example, it is a mistake to suggest that Caesar rebelled partly because the Senate refused him a triumph. Similarly, the description of Ceasar's army as "the army of the Roman Republic" is amateurish in the extreme. I could go on and on, but it would be nice if an expert could clean up the mess.Esf456 22:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)esf456

[edit] Expulsion of Women and Children?

Having just watched a program on this subject which took a quite different view in some key areas, I second the call for an expert opinion. For example the statement "The Mandubii decided to expel the women and children from the citadel" seems particularly out of keeping with some views on Celtic culture.

[edit] Number of Gaulish Warriors

Where is the 250,000 figure for the relief army comming from? It seems very high, I have heard 100-200 thousand but never 250,000.

[edit] Caesar's Early Years

"This was a considerable engineering feat, but nothing new to the man who, as curule aedile, an elected official of the city of Rome, had once diverted the Tiber into the Circus Maximus for a mock sea battle, as a form of public entertainment."

Source? This smells of BS to me. 154.20.115.35 22:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC)