Talk:Batman Begins/Archive 2

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
← Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 →

Contents

Bruce's age, again

Once again, people are changing the references to Bruce's age at the various stages of the film. The film is very clear on the timeline. 156.34.241.62 and 64.228.192.97, I don't know why you're doing this, but please stop. If you would like to dispute the facts of the film, this is the place to do it. A series of constant reversions, especially when demonstrably false, is not the way to make your point. --Chancemichaels 16:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels

Okay, how about we just don't include Bruce's different ages in the film, if it creates much controversy? Maybe that will stop this edit war. Just a suggestion --Jonathan.Bruce 08:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
One small problem with that suggestion: there is no "controversy." Bruce's age is quite clearly established in the film, both on the screen and in dialogue. That you personally would like Batman to be younger in this film doesn't change the basic facts of Goyer's script, nor does somebody inserting false information into the article make it true. Additionally, given the complicated narrative, I think referring to Bruce's age is very important in keeping the three time periods separate in any brief synopsis.
Do you have any evidence to challenge the article that Bruce is 8, 22 and 29-turning-30 in the film? If so, I would love to hear it. Until then, there is no controversy. --Chancemichaels 15:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels
Let's just say "Years later, Joe Chill is murdered after agreeing to testify against Falcone....." instead of having this "disagreement," not a controversy as you said. Or, we can say "That night, at Bruce's birthday, he is confronted by Ducard," so we can avoid this disagreement, as I suggested earlier. Besides, I've got important things to do (study, job, prepare for college), so let's not mention ages at all. It's not worth a waste of time. --Jonathan.Bruce 06:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Look, I'm sorry for inconviences I or anybody else have caused you. I wonder why Goyer and Nolan weren't thinking that Batman is around 30 in the current comics con, but he's in his twenties when he debuts! Perhaps, in writing the script, they forgot he started out younger and made him 28-30. Maybe in later films, they can retcon this little detail.

If Ra's al Ghul is brought back by Talia and the League of Shadows in the future, Batman is beaten and injured in a fight, uses a Lazarus Pit and is restored to full health and reverts a few years younger (mid-twenties) and must stave off the temporary madness that comes with a dip in the pit. It's not impossible to make such a story like this for a future film, but Batman will be middle-aged by the time Robin, Tim Drake, and all those characters come into the picture. Just a thought, but lets just ignore or leave out the ages in the synopsis. --Jonathan.Bruce 07:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Your issue, then, is with the filmmakers. They are the ones who quite explicitly state Bruce's age in several places throughout the course of the film. Obviously, they had reason for doing so, as nothing in a Christopher Nolan film is there by accident. Your objection is largely based on your not liking the choices he made, which seems to fall under original research. That is not evidence. The article should be about describing what is, not what you would like to be. --Chancemichaels 17:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels
If the ages are explicitly stated in the film than they should be featured within the article. Exact ages will make the summary easier to follow rather than vague "Years later". If these ages are spoken or presented in an obvious fashion than Chancemichaels is right in that there is no dispute. The Filmaker 18:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
To be fair, the "explicit" reference is just the number "30" a watchful viewer can just make out in the form of an ornament around the party area before the actual celebration. During the actul celebration, it is nowhere to be seen, almost as if removed intentionally. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 19:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
There's also the mathematics. Much is made of the timeline in dialogue, with multiple references to how much time has passed. Fourteen years between the murder of Bruce's parents and the murder of Joe Chill, "You have been gone seven years" and all that. When you throw in the large "30th birthday" graphic (which fills the background in a couple shots, then yes. I'd say that it is explcitly referred to. --Chancemichaels 20:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels
Isn't it kinda funny how we see it in a few shots (before Rachel heads to Arkham), and it isn't shown at the party? (I've got poor eyesight, and I didn't see it until much later after I rewatched the movie) Maybe Goyer and Nolan thought they explained the timeline enough and left it out...or did they? Beats me. It is similar to the whole Chuck Cunnigham disappearance and later re-appearance on "Happy Days," or Jim Lahey's daughter disappearing without explanation on Trailer Park Boys. Anyways, you're right on. --Jonathan.Bruce 07:40, Nov 2 2006 (UTC)
I don't know that I would consider it "funny" at all, unless you have some evidence that Nolan and his editor "left it out." There's no indication that they changed their minds, only that some details of the art direction are visible in some shots but not others (hardly unusual for filmmaking). They certainly hammer the point through with the repeated references in dialogue. --Chancemichaels 17:38, 3 November 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels

Improving the article

As one of the editors for The Dark Knight, I'd like to improve this article of its preceding film to quality standards. The References section is underwhelming, and I'd like to expand on this article with stronger citations. Three key sections to expand are Production, Cast, and Reaction. The paragraph in the Cast section is especially in dire need because anyone can make outlandish claims about who was considered for the film without citation. Below are my suggestions for improving the article:

  • Move Synopsis section above Production section and rename as Plot section
  • Expand and cite Production section; segment into subsections based on different stages of production
  • Change table in Cast section into what can be seen at GA-class X-Men: The Last Stand's Cast section
  • Clean up Reaction section and avoid weasel words, especially in Criticism section
  • Create separate "Film vs. canon"-style section to compare and contrast objectively
  • Reach consensus on inclusion of "Canceled Batman projects" section that doesn't seem to have a place here, especially with lack of citation

To expand this article, new information needs to be added. This new information must be verifiable by other editors. To do this, cite accordingly and use reliable sources. Reliable sources do not include blogs, scooper reports, forums, etc. I have a film article expansion guide that can be used to help expand this particular article. I suggest the following news archives for retrieval of old information for Batman Begins:

If you can help contribute, it would be appreciated. An article about this quality film should be quality as well. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 22:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Some questions I'd like to ask to fellow editors:
  • Should uncited information, such as the body of the Influences subsection, be kept in the article to be cited later, or just be removed immediately?
  • Should the Batmobile get its own section or be placed under a section different from Production -- such as "Technology"?
  • When we compare and contrast Batman Begins to the rest of Batman canon, do we need to cite information from Batman canon, such as Robin becoming Batman's sidekick before ever dealing with Ra's al Ghul?
  • Does the information about canceled Batman projects belong in this article, as this isn't "development hell" information, but separate Batman projects entirely?
Please let me know what you think, and feel free to suggest any other improvements that this article should have. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 17:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Cancelled Projects

I think the Cancelled Projects has been allowed to exist for far too long. The tag for not citing sources has been there for at least a month and now another completely uncited section has been added. I think its time to axe the section per WP:VERIFY. Gdo01 03:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I concur. This doesn't seem to belong, at least not in this film article. If this information has citation behind it, maybe it can be part of some Batman film franchise article, but definitely not here. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 05:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

My recommendation is to trim that section of the article into the production section. Begins evolved really from Year One. Wiki-newbie 13:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The production based on Year One and the production of Batman Begins both drew from the same source. I don't think that Batman Begins drew from the leftovers of the Year One cancelled project. Of course, there's no citation whatsoever about these projects, so that information can't be verified. Actually, I think that all the cancelled project information should be merged to Batman in popular media#Cancelled Batman Projects, which currently exists. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 17:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
In the absence of any citation, I would tend to agree. If anyone can substantiate that the Batman Begins budget was charged for those aborted films, as was the case for Superman Returns, then it would merit inclusion here. I don't know that to be the case, though, and until we do they all belong in their own article. --Chancemichaels 19:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels

Inspiration

According to this DVD review, there is a paragraph about a DVD featurette called "Genesis of the Bat" (15 min.), which said, "It starts off by describing the influence the original comics -- specifically 'The Long Halloween', Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams' Ra's al Ghul stories, 'The Man who Falls', and Frank Miller's 'Batman: Year One' -- had on the film, but it gradually turns into an extended plug for DC's thoroughly awful All-Star Batman and Robin comic." I don't have the movie with me to flesh out these influential sources, so if anyone has the DVD, the information is there to detail the influences on Batman Begins (and to cite as well). --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 19:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I have it. This thing's like the friggen Grubman costume. Anyway, I have it. What do you want me to look at and how can we cite it? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph said that the film was influenced by Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: The Man Who Falls, Batman: Year One, and the Ra's al Ghul stories by Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams. What you could do is verify that the commentary did mention these sources (though I'm pretty sure the reviewer wouldn't lie about something like that). You can also find out if there are any more mentioned in the commentary such as Batman: Dark Victory or Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, which are both listed but uncited in this article's "Influences" subsection. Also, if possible, find out some detail behind each influence, such as which source influenced what aspect of the film? I'm sure when we get the information verified, we can cite using some citation template that allows us to reference DVD commentary. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 22:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay. I've gotta go shopping in a bit, but I'll come back to this first thing tonight or tomorrow. There's definitely a lot to flesh out. I'm thinkin'...full rewrite. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 23:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Done. Couldn't find anything concrete on the DKR mention. Like you said, it just sorta goes south into a plug for the new comic. Jim Lee name dropping DKR out of nowhere is the turning point. Overall, it's good stuff. I actually thought the whole "all these comics were inspiration" thing was BS, but the way they explain it makes sense. In particular Ra's asian bodyguard is dressed strikingly similar to Ken's role. I guess that was a tell for older comics fans. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 08:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Terrific addition! I actually learned some new things about what inspired the film. I edited your new paragraph's wording a little bit, but the overall content remains intact. (I assume that the last sentence that I edited out was just left over from you piecing the information together?) I tried to dig up a citation about Nolan and Blade Runner last night, but I couldn't seem to find a direct source, just links to pages that have IMDb-style trivia... but anyway, this is seriously a major step for making a better article! Thanks for your contribution. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 13:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Probably just the feel of the comics (Year One, Long Halloween) was what influenced Batman Begins. Hopefully, they can adapt some of the other stories like Dark Victory and/or The Killing Joke. Look at Sin City, they were able to adapt that to the big screen quite faithfully. Let's see Nolan do that. --Jonathan.Bruce 07:17, 6 Nov 2006 (UTC)

Departure from comics

I have just added reasonably substantial content to the "Departure from canon" bit, and fixed a few parts as well. It is interesting that such a part exists here and should be applied to other Bat-film articles as well. Batman's tendency not to save some villains is not exclusively present in Batman Begins (note when he threw a thug into a pothole and let him explode in Batman Returns, or when he used the Joker to shield himself from bullets in Batman: A Death in the Family. Also, major parts (which I have just added in, but only a little) such as Bruce's training around the world and how he came to use the bat as his totem were neglected. Anyway, keep it up, fellow editors of this article!

5 November 2006 7:57 Singapore time Jedd the Jedi

You're right on. I mean, Bats coulda saved Ra's on the burning train, but he chose not to save him. It's not like in Tim Burton's films where he just kills without remorse, (that made Batman too dark) but he will use extreme force to protect himself and others. Perhaps, if some major comics fan, like you Jedd the Jedi, could direct an installment, he/she could include that training in Alaska (see the Man Who Falls and LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT #1) and how he chose the bat as his totem. You could direct a film, man, keep working on it! --Jonathan.Bruce 07:20, 6 Nov 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the complement, Bruce! I'll work on it, but I'm more of a movie buff than a comics fan.

13 November 2006 User: Jedd the Jedi 12:31 Singapore time

No kidding. I'm working on a script treatment of "The Long Halloween" right now. I'm planning to ask Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale's permission, then I'll contact Warner Bros within a few years to try and have it adapted. Of course, this could contradict the Begins sequels, but I can have Harvey Dent get plastic surgery and resort back to Two-Face by the end! And, yeah, I'm more writer than a reader. --Jonathan.Bruce 05:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow, that sounds quite ambitious. Just a word of warning, but it's a long-drawn and complicated process. There are tons of fans who make a living out of writing script treatments for Batman novels or comics, but I sincerely wish you well. The franchise does need a reboot now and then, and "Begins" was an excellent one. All the best! Jedd the Jedi 02:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Just kidding! I just said that to get your reaction! --Jonathan.Bruce 04:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Should've seen that! Anyway, I left a note on your talk page. Private discussions are better had elsewhere, you know. Jedd the Jedi 01:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't "Departure from Comics" a better title for the section than "Departure from Canon"? The film series has no canon, and there are several Batman canons - the 60s series and film, the 1990s animated series, the 2000s animated series, the first film series and now the new film series. The only "departures" discussed are from the comics. --Chancemichaels 15:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels

Yes, it is, for exactly those reasons. However, I like "Divergence from comics", if only because I like the word "divergence". :) EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, there is a brief mention about comparing Batman Begins to the other films (like Batman killing in Batman), but I've changed the section title otherwise. Divergence is a nice word, but Departure seems suitable enough already. :-P --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 18:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Gotham City

Can anyone write a paragraph about Gotham City in the film to precede the paragraph about how Nolan and Crowley conceived of its design? The Batmobile and Batsuit subsections have lead paragraphs detailing its existence in the fictional universe, and Gotham City should have the same thing. Just describe (as objectively as possible) the history of Gotham City, such as the train system being implemented by the Waynes, Ra's al Ghul trying to bring the city down via economics as a weapon, Carmine Falcone being in charge, the corrupt police, etc. It would be greatly appreciated, thanks. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 16:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I gave it a go, though my memory of the film is a bit foggy. Certainly it helps the Plot section regarding the complex web of corruption in Gotham, and basically the film going through three villains. Wiki-newbie 10:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Plot section

I was wondering if it would be more appropriate to write the Plot section with a linear perspective. For example, is it really necessary to try to explain the film in the exact order of the scenes? Why can't we just write about how Bruce Wayne was born to the Waynes (with brief background on the family and their involvement with Gotham City), then talk about the events that happened to 8-year-old Bruce Wayne (the encounter with the bats and his parents' deaths), then go forward to 22-year-old Bruce Wayne out of college and desiring to kill Joe Chill, and so forth? The back-and-forth perspective works on film, but it seems too confusing in a summary because there's less impact in just reading succinct sentences. What do you think? --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 18:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking that when I tried to clean up the first paragraph some, but I didn't do anything about it. Bignole
I agree. Linear is more easier --Jonathan.Bruce 04:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I read the article and feel it's just fine and not in need of linear explanation, ala Nolan's other films. Wiki-newbie 10:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

GA review

It's a pretty good article, it only needs some minor adjustments. I'll put the article "on hold."

  1. Well written?: Pass. It seems to be ok, although I think the last part of this sentence Roger Ebert, who had panned all previous live-action Batman movies, gave Batman Begins 4 stars out of 4, calling it "the Batman movie I've been waiting for", would sound better this way ...gave Batman Begins 4 stars out of 4, saying it was "the Batman movie [he had] been waiting for".
  2. Factually accurate?: Pass
  3. Broad in its coverage?: Pass
  4. Neutral point of view?: Pass
  5. Stable?: Ok
  6. Images?: Fail. [Image:Rachelsave.jpg] does not have a fair use rationale.

Something else, the article is in the "Articles with unsourced statements" category. Find a citation or this sentence Nolan said that in the continuity, Gotham City is located somewhere around New Jersey and New York.[citation needed] or remove it.

If the above concerns are addressed, I'll pass it.:) Nat91 16:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I replaced the Rachel save one with something more appropriate: I wasn't willing to give it a FU rationale as it is. Wiki-newbie 18:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

  • The statement has been removed. I hope you can pass it now. :) The Filmaker 20:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Passed GA. Good work everyone. :) Nat91 04:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Plot Summary

Would it be acceptable to put the events from early in the film in chronologial order, rather than the order depicted? --Spencer "The Belldog" Bermudez | (Complain here) 15:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I've suggested this before, so I'd support it, yes. It's too difficult to jump back and forth with the transitions between the different ages. I think it'd be easier to follow, since writing transitions is more difficult than seeing them in the film for oneself. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 15:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
It says in the plot the opera at night, the day Bruce fell into the well? I remember Thomas saying he'd have to set the bone that Bruce broke, and I don't recall a cast on Bruce the night of the opera. Bignole

Suggestions for improvement

I think that the Production section needs to forego sectioning, as many FA-class film articles seem to have that kind of setup. The challenge would be "stitching" the production information together so that it would flow. I'd suggest, though, that "Influences" and "Departure from canon" be exported from the Production section, since the information is supplementary in nature. Perhaps they can be set up as subsections under an "Adaptation" section, since influences and comparisons would fall under that category. I'm not sure about the film score, though... I think there's a couple of citations about IGN's interview with the composers which would help flesh out the film score to have its own section. That would leave the Development and Filming subsections to combine, and I think we can expand on that using the production notes from the film (you can find them in References). Any additional suggestions or comments are welcome. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 17:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I've re-arranged as per above. I have a couple of questions: Do we need all these awards and nominations? Most of the list consists of nominations, anyway. What consists whether an award or a nomination is worthy of mention? Also, I want to make a "See also" section for the link to the soundtrack and the video game instead of having filler. The soundtrack information can be moved to its article. It'd save on some space. If there's any issue, just comment here. Otherwise, I'll make the change in a bit. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 19:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd only list the ones that were won, if any, and we'd need a source for them. It isn't like we can simply go back and watch the ceremonies at will. Bignole 19:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The deluxe edition of the Batman Begins DVD has these special features:

  • Genesis of the Bat: Batman incarnations from the mid-1980s to the present.
  • The Journey Begins: Creative concepts, story development and casting.
  • Shaping Mind and Body: Fighting style.
  • Gotham City Rises: Production design.
  • Cape and Cowl: The new Batsuit.
  • The Tumbler: The new Batmobile.
  • Path to Discovery: Filming in Iceland.

"Genesis of the Bat" has already been worked into the article by Ace. However, the other features on the DVD might be beneficial to expanding the article, such as "Gotham City Rises" for the Gotham City subsection under Design. In addition, if there's any new information about the Batsuit and the Batmobile, these could be worked in, too. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 20:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

If there are not that many awards that have been "won" I think we could take those that were and maybe put them in the lead paragraph. If there aren't enough to support a section we could find a place for them within another appropriate section. Bignole 20:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a good idea. I think that Wally Pfister's nomination for cinematography should be in the lead paragraph(s) as well to reflect the notability of the film's style. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 20:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

That's if we decide to ditch the section. In the least we need sources for these awards, and probably should try and turn it into paragraph text, instead of lists. Bignole 20:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added references for all of them except for MTV Movie Awards - can't seem to find a direct source, and I don't really want to deal with MTV.com's ridiculously crappy interface as it is these days. I think that maybe a rule of thumb we could use is that if there's not a Wikipedia article about an award show or the organization that sponsors it, get rid of it. Then trim the rest, like I don't really know if the Razzie nomination is worth a mention. Doesn't seem encyclopedic in this particular case if the person didn't even win. (I thought Katie Holmes did just fine as Rachel Dawes in this film, sheesh.) --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 21:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Did this movie retcon the rest?

I was wondering if this movie retconed the rest of the Batman movies? I personally loved the 1st 2 movies and find them much darker and more stylized then Batman Begins. I found it odd that they re did the whole act of Bruce Wayne's parents dying. If indeed this movie retconed the rest, maybe there should be a section on it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DevilsAlwaysCry (talk • contribs) 06:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Batman Begins is the first in a completely new series of Batman films and not to be considered a prequel or "retcon", as stated in the article. In the future, please read articles and remember that Wikipedia talk pages are not forums. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 06:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Gotham City image?

I don't think that the new image for the Gotham City subsection suits it very well; it's about as useful as the image in the Plot section with Batman and Gordon. Is there a better image to replace it, if we even need an image at all? --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 01:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, image's been removed, anyway. :) I haven't seen the movie in a while; are there any prominent shots of contemporary Gotham City in the film that would help illustrate the universe? Especially a shot that separates Gotham City from a typical city? --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 01:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Batsuit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Batman_bale_small.jpg

I saw this on the Batman page. This image has a broader view of the suit, with more detail. The tagging is incorrect on it, but I think it better illustrates the suit. Anyone else's thoughts? Bignole

Hmm, I wouldn't mind replacing the current one with that image. I think we probably have too many actual screenshots in the article as it is. This one definitely shows quality detail. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 15:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I think replacing the "film screenshot" tag (which isn't correct) with one of the copyright tags that are used for the gallery on the Batmobiles might be more appropriate. But, we may have to consult someone from the images help center on that. Bignole 15:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Original research in "Departure from comics"

I'm starting to think that we should remove this subsection or at least start requiring citations for it. The original research for the subsection seems to be getting out of hand, and with this basis, it's too difficult to question what content to include or not. What do other editors think? —Erik (talk • contrib) - 23:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

This isn't "let's find all the differences in the film compared to the 'many' comics it was inspired from". I'm sure there are plenty of similarities and differences between this film and the comics. IMO, if we don't have a reliable source discusses the differences (even then try and keep them to the most important ones..the fact that batman's symbol is different at this point in his life is irrelevant, or anything like that) then we shouldn't be including it. Personal comparisons of two source materials is still Original Research, because you can't see if it's just a coincidence or intention or what. No source no place. Just my opinion. Bignole 00:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree. In addition, the sources should be about the observations made and not just citing a comic book issue (like an issue where the actual Ra's Al Ghul appears in his Arabic look in order to compare to the film version). I think this would minimize effort and keep the section from becoming unwieldy. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 00:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. Bignole 00:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Diddo. The section started out as fan criticism and still exists as a a short "free for all" OR-factory. I'd say either delete it wholesale or find/require citations and remove the rest. I'm leaning toward the former. Wikipedia isn't the place for people to add little reviewers and critiques. Also, we already have sections about the batsuit ands batmobile, so any data about those should be kept out and/or moved if present/added. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 00:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the section and renamed Adaptation to be Influences for the rest of the content. The Plot section and the Design section should give article readers adequate information to make their own mental comparisons with the film and their knowledge of Batman comics. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 00:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As I'm looking at it again, I'm thinking Ace has the best idea..get rid of it completely. It really does nothing more than compare the film to the comic, when the film is based on not only several comics (not just one), but also an original interpretation of the character. There really isn't a point to say "Batman didn't do this in the comics" when this isn't an adaptation. This isn't like "JAWS" where you have a film based on a novel, it's film based on a character, with elements from several sources. What changes they make doesn't really make a difference in an encyclopedia. Bignole 00:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Influences section

Hey, fellas, just got your message regarding my edits to this section. I appreciate the guidance. My question is this: the points I made are easily verifiable by viewing the movie and reading the Year One comic. Couldn't I just cite Year One as my reference? Probably not, I'm assuming. I respect the guidlines regarding citing references, and I realize my frustration is not with this section of the article per se but more with the original reference downplaying the film's debt to Year One as there are clearly more parallels to that comic than what are mentioned in the DVD documentary cited (forgive me, but I haven't seen the documentary; my DVD is the special "sucker" edition with no extras). I'm new to Wikipedia and having fun with it, but I want to make additions that are relevant and valuable, so your advice is apprecated. Cris Varengo 03:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

In my experience, it's a pretty thin line between making "obvious" connections and relatively obscure connections. A lot of trivia on film articles tend to be based on these connections and usually aren't qualified as encyclopedic. I doubt that your connections between Batman Begins and Year One are wrong, but some editors, myself included, desire a high level of authenticity on this article, The Dark Knight, and Spider-Man 3 (though the articles on Spider-Man's preceding films are in pretty gross shape). I think what you could do, if you wanted to expand the Year One connection, is Google for reliable sources with Year One and Batman Begins as the keyword. Who knows, maybe there's an interview where the connections are more explicitly drawn than in the DVD featurette. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 03:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the tip. I might do that, but I'll probably just leave it alone; this section does refer to the film's debt to Year One and any one who decides to compare the two will discover the other parallels between the film and the comic for themselves. My own personal observation is definitely that the film drew heavily from Year One, which is a good thing. I loved Year One and I loved this film. My opinion is that the featurette (which in all fairness I haven't seen) must kind of downplay the film's debt to Year One. But this is making an issue out of nothing, I suppose. Many scenes in the movie have direct, nearly identical parallels in Year One, but I guess any faithful film translation of Batman's early career would have to if they were following current comics canon. Cris Varengo 04:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
The featurette mentions various comics and isn't the best resource for full encyclopedic citation or comic fan satisfying data. The use of Year One is mostly implied through imagery rather than wording. Ultimately, I'd encourage you and anyone else to seek out sources and cite sources better suited for an encyclopedia. I'm sure the DVD extra just doesn't do the facts justice. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 08:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Expansion

I followed my own advice of Googling the keywords Batman Begins and Year One. In the process, I uncovered some interesting sources. First of all, David S. Goyer talked a bit more about Year One influences with in an interview with SFX magazine (couldn't find the interview on SFX home page). This could be inserted into the Influences section; probably would need to change the DVD featurette citation into multiple references if we're going to go back and forth between citations. Secondly, I have an idea to address the "Departure from comics" dilemma. We could provide informative sites in the External links and keep any comparison out of the article entirely. IGN has a Comic Vs. Film analysis. There's also a less reliable blog entry that draws comparisons and differences as well. My suggestion is that the editors can agree on what seems to be the most appropriate links to include in External links. I'm fine with including both, but if I had to choose one, I'd go with the IGN analysis. Let me know what you think. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 18:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

A couple more citations that mention Dark Victory (removed from the article a while ago due to lack of citation) as a reference: VH1 and IGN again. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 18:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I think including more information, from other sources, into the "influences" section would be the best thing to do. Obviously, the DVD featurette takes precidence over anything else, as it literally has the film makers discussing what was what, but sometimes even they can forget something or just not have time to go into detail. I'd also just use the IGN "Comic/Film" entry. Bignole 19:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I shuffled the External links around a little. I removed a spammish Christian review that somehow made its way back in that section after I took it out a while ago. There's a couple of existing "comparison" links that I kept in there, but if anyone contests them, feel free to remove them. The Comic Vs. Film analysis is now inserted. I removed an interview since it was at a blog; seemed like possible linkspam? I'm wary of blogspot.com links. Also, should the "Open Directory Project" link stay? It just leads to a repository of links -- some look useful, some don't at all. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 19:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd let it stay. It allows us to say, "look there is already a link to a site that has dozens of links". It could help us keep the external links section from growing too large. Bignole 19:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Improvemant

just like Spidey 3, I think Ill see what can be done here for help. Anyway, they dont seem to like me to much ofver there. Boggydark 08:37, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Boggy, as you've seen ThuranX say at Talk:Spider-Man 3, the difficulty in trying to help you understand why your edits are not appropriate have been reported to the administrators' noticeboard. I suggest that you hold off on editing further and see what an administrator has to say to you about the situation. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:19, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Lead paragrpah

I made the following attempt to expand the lead paragraph

Batman Begins is a 2005 superhero film based on the fictional DC Comics character Batman. The film is directed by Christopher Nolan and stars Christian Bale as Batman. The film was a reboot of the Batman film franchise, following the commercial and critical failure of Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin in 1997. The lighter direction Schumacher had taken the franchise was abandoned, and a new film was written concerning the origins of Batman with some inspirations from the Year One and Long Halloween storylines.

The film is an exploration of Batman's origins, and was the first sucessful film adaptation of this stage of the character's history. In the story, Bruce Wayne joins a group of vigilantes to fight crime after the murder of his parents, and returns to challenge the master of his hometown of Gotham's criminal element, Carmine Falcone. During this conflict, however, he discovers Falcone is in league with a more dangerous and destructive power which seeks the destruction of Gotham, rather than its corruption.

Batman Begins was a critical and commercial success, and a sequel entitled The Dark Knight was commissioned for a 2008 release with both Nolan and Bale returning.

but it was removed, the reason being "Save it for the plot." I'm just bringing it up as I had written it based on the lead for Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, and it has been requested that section be expanded. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 14:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't recall a request for expansion. Besides, your addition was poorly written. "The first origin story" or some similarly brief note is enough. Your changed adds "successful" which makes the final paragraph about said success somewhat redundant. Not to mention, it implies that there may have been other, non-success origin stories, which I certainly don't believe there were. The first sentence of your expanded second paragraph is a also either a run-on sentence or comma splice. I find this part especially telling, in a bad way: "returns to challenge the master of his hometown of Gotham's criminal element". What the hell is that? Borderline nonsense. How about not using two possessives and "of"s concurrently in the same sentence? For example: "returns to defeat Carmine Falcone, the top mobster corrupting his home of Gotham City"? Then, once again, there's the actual messages implied by the poor wording.
Let say what I get from that expanded second paragraph which is supposed to summarize the story. Bruce joins a gang after his parents are murdered. He tries to stop a mob boss, but learns that boss is working with some ambiguous "destructive force". This thoroughly misinforms the reader while actually uninforming them at the same time. You make it sound like Bruce joined the gang right after the murder, or at the very least, not ten some odd years later! Then you skip right over how Bruce leaves the gang with their HQ destroyed. The reader's supposed to assume Bruce's "return"—from where, BTW? You never explain where he went or anything. Was the murder and gang joining just after his parents moved or something?—is a complete separate event following his alliance and disalliance with the gang? Or does he bring the gang with him to fight Falcone? Now, let's return to the end and ambiguous "force". Let me guess, you're trying to save the readers the surprise of finding out that "force" is Bruce's old gang? Or maybe it's some evil corporation. Hey! Maybe it's a personification of death or the devil!
Oh, and you mention only one antagonist, while the film has atleast three others: Ra's al Ghul, Scarecrow and Joe Chill. Tell me again, why shouldn't your change have been reverted? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 19:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
It was on the to-do list, but I'm seeing your point --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 20:04, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Seriously? Oh...well, sorry. I might have been a little harsh. I suppose something could be done. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 20:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I mentioned the death of Bruce's parents, wikified the glorified name drippings of "Year one" and "Halloween", mentioned the three villains—Joe doesn't really count—and still avoided trying to explain the whole, fairly complex plot. As a side note, the article was at 41 kb before and after I editted it. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 21:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks good, if you were interested in my opinion. Otherwise, er, carry on with whatever you were planning to do --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 12:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Sorry again for the biting. My friends here have been recommending my teeth be knocked out.
,,,in a nice way. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)