Talk:Batman Begins

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Good article Batman Begins has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.

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[edit] Critical analysis

  • Wood, Aylish (Fall 2007). "Pixel Visions: Digital Intermediates and Micromanipulations of the Image". Film Criticism 32 (1): 72-94. 

This article has an interesting analysis about how the film's universe is shaped around the character psychology (of Bruce Wayne). Just leaving a note here in case anyone wants to tackle this. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 06:12, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FA drive

I would like to establish a drive for this article to reach FA status and to become Featured Article of the Day for the first day of wide release for The Dark Knight (July 18, 2008 in the US right now). I've revised the to-do list at the top of this talk page with issues that need addressing, but other suggestions are welcome. Personally, this seems like a weak Good Article, so there needs to be some expansion in terms of real-world context. I am also wondering if anyone else thinks that the Plot section could be trimmed some more. Also, considering that there are seven non-free images in this article, we may want to cut down on images, specifically the ones in the Plot section. Also, I was thinking that we could replace the image in Cast section with one like this to reflect the physical training Bale underwent. It would tie into the existing prose about Bale working out. Any other suggestions or ideas for the article, feel free to contribute here. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 20:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a listen to this when I have time. It looks legit. Alientraveller 20:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I found an article in Animation Magazine in a database that talked about the visual effects for creating Gotham City. Here's a sample: "When we see the sun rise over Gotham City from Bruce Wayne's plane as he returns home, the camera sweeps across half a million buildings that span 40 virtual miles. It's a 100% digital shot; all the buildings are fully 3D. But, even though all the buildings in the big aerial sunrise shot are digital, each one is based on a real building. That's true throughout the film." This will help substantiate the Gotham City picture, which I've always thought was weak on fair use rationale due to lack of direct description. I'll try to incorporate information from the magazine article into this Wikipedia article. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 20:52, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so I'm going through some of the reviews that were in the section I dumped in my sandbox, trying to see what is usable. Alien expressed an interest in keeping the Morrison bit, but the only thing he says about the film is: It's not all O'Neil/Adams though; I was influenced by the animated series portrayal of Batman, by Christian Bale's definitive performance in Batman Begins and by Mike Barr's '80s Batman stories with Alan Davis, which swam bravely against the prevailing trends at a time when the grim 'n' gritty current was at its strongest.—That's all. I really hate to just use a one word critique of a film. I mean, he doesn't really go into why he though Bale's performance was "definitive". It just seems like someone you would use on a DVD box or a tv spot. Anyone else?  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I would make that review a lesser priority for now. See how much critical reaction you can flesh out with the other reviews, and if Morrison's review can add anything, do so. If not, I'd discard it. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
So, since the film only won 4 awards (ASCAP Film and Television Music Awards, Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy & Horror Films, USA, Hollywood Film Festival, MTV Movie Awards), should we probably think about mentioning nominations?  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 00:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I would say that the Academy and BAFTA award nominations are worth mentioning, but I'm not so sure about the rest. (Look at the awards page at IMDb, of course.) —Erik (talk • contrib) - 00:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I hate just using AA and BAFTA because it's like saying "those others just are not worth it," when to the people that run them, they are. VES Awards, Golden Reels, Hugo Awards, and some others are worthy enough if they are won, so I have to assume they should be mentioned if they are nominated. Obviously, I wouldn't think that we should include such things like Golden Trailers or World Soundtrack Awards, as neither has to do with the film itself. I'm curious if we should list something like Teen Choice Awards or People's Choice, as it shows an obvious reaction by fans so we can avoid the usual good faith edits of "fans loved/hated this film," but, I have no idea how the films are actually nominated. I don't know if the fans are the ones that nominate and vote, or if the people that run the show nominate and the fans vote. If they are nominated by the organizations, then it is less significant IMO.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 00:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you could check to see if any of the other awards have well-developed articles (not just stubs). That may be a ticket to help reflect their prominence. You could also do rough Google searches and measure the results against each other, pick the awards with the bigger hits. I wouldn't suggest too many more nomination mentions, though. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 00:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
That's just it, if we limit awards to what was won (and even mentioned AA and BAFTA) that section would be too weak to be a subsection, kind of like how the box office info is weak as a subsection. I'm thinking they may need to go together, like Halloween (1978 film)#Reception did, although we wouldn't have an "influence" subsection, to the "criticism" subsection, and as you pointed out once before, it may not be good to have 1 subsection.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 00:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't have an issue with having just one section. I implemented that at Road to Perdition#Reception because the box office performance and awards/nominations subsections were meager compared to the actual criticism. I preferred box office performance, criticism, then awards/nominations -- it seems to flow well enough for me. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 00:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
That's kind of what I had in mind. I'll see what I can do after I finish the review section. I'll see if I can find anything about the DVD sales, or any other figures for the film. If you any let me know.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 00:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cast section

I have found so much information on Bale that I think some restructuring for the cast section is in order. We should lose the bullet points and just write it flowingly and naturally. Perhaps we can merge minor cast members into paragraphs too. Alientraveller 21:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I would be in favor of this; real-world context about this film's central figure would definitely be encyclopedic. We could have a separate prose paragraph about the villains. (Maybe we can bring in specifics from Writing and leave alone the broader concepts?) —Erik (talk • contrib) - 21:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resources

Good news -- I was originally looking for Cinefantastique online some time ago (for some other film), and they didn't seem to have anything available here at my university. Today, though, I found out that they actually have the periodicals in my main library. There is coverage for Batman Begins in the July 2005, January 2006, and May 2006 issues. Since I can't check out the magazines, I'll try to go in there with a laptop and see what useful content I can find. Does anyone know if they have access to Screen International? That's another magazine with potential content... —Erik (talk • contrib) - 21:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

  • BOND, Jeff: Anatomy lesson: Building Metropolis / Cinefantastique (0145-6032) v.38 n.3 , May 2006, p.14-17, English, illus / Hollywood production designers talk about translating comic art into three dimensions for the cinema.
  • BOND, Jeff: Film: Batman Begins / Cinefantastique (0145-6032) v.37 n.9 , January 2006, p.20, English, illus / Cast and crew speak briefly about BATMAN BEGINS.
  • FORDHAM, Joe: Starting Over / Cinefex n.103 , October 2005, p.90-96,101-112,118, English, illus / Details of the special effects used in BATMAN BEGINS.
  • PIZZELLO, Stephen: Renovating the Batcave / American Cinematographer (0002-7928) v.Suppl , October 2005, p.16-18, English, illus / Cinematographer Wally Pfister outlines the lighting strategy used for the scenes set in Bruce Wayne's underground cave for the film BATMAN BEGINS.
  • MUGLESTON, Robert: Dynamic duos / ScriptWriter (1475-5157) n.24 , September 2005, p.48-51, English, illus / Article exploring issues of identity and duality in David S. Goyer's screenplay for BATMAN BEGINS.
  • SLOANE, Judy: Bat Out of Hell / StarBurst (0955-114X) n.326 , August 2005, p.36-40,42,44, English, illus / Director Christopher Nolan plus cast members talk about making BATMAN BEGINS.
  • KAY, Jeremy: Duets for one / Screen International (0307-4617) n.1507 , 08 July 2005, p.6, English, illus / Two pairs of composers explain their reason for working on the film scores of BATMAN BEGINS (Hanz Zimmer and James Newton Howard) and SIN CITY (Graeme Revell and John Debney with Robert Rodriguez).
  • WALKER, Jonathan: BATMAN BEGINS / Film Review (0957-1809) n.658 , July 2005, p.64-67, English, illus / Actor Christian Bale also comments on the making of the film.
  • NEWMAN, Kim: Cape fear / Sight and Sound (0037-4806) v.15 n.7 , July 2005, p.18-21, English, illus / Looks at the cinematic creative lineage of the BATMAN franchise as Christopher Nolan's BATMAN BEGINS takes him back to his origins.
  • JORDAN, Sean & GROSS, Edward: A Knight in Gotham / Cinefantastique (0145-6032) v.37 n.4 , July 2005, p.22-31,34-35, English, illus / On BATMAN BEGINS, including sidebar interviews with Christian Bale, Gary Oldman and Cillian Murphy.
  • REYNOLDS, Simon: Escape from the Batcave / Cinefantastique (0145-6032) v.37 n.4 , July 2005, p.32-33,67, English, illus / On the long, complicated development process for BATMAN BEGINS.
  • SPELLING, Ian: Batman Flies Again / StarBurst (0955-114X) v.Spec. n.70 , July 2005, p.36-42,44, English, illus / Screenwriter David S. Goyer talks about working on BATMAN BEGINS, with sidebars from Christian Bale.
  • SMITH, Adam: The Original American Psycho / Empire n.193 , July 2005, p.74-80,82,84,87, English, illus / A behind-the-scenes look at the making of BATMAN BEGINS, including interviews with director Christopher Nolan and actor Christian Bale.
  • SMITH, Adam: The Scarecrow: Cillian Murphy Stirs Up Cape Fears... / Empire n.193 , July 2005, p.77, English, illus / A brief interview with actor Cillian Murphy about his role in the film BATMAN BEGINS.
  • SMITH, Adam: The Batsuit Stats / Empire n.193 , July 2005, p.78, English, illus / An examination of the different materials used to make the bat suit in BATMAN BEGINS with comments by designer Day Murch.
  • SMITH, Adam: Alfred The Butler: Sir Michael Caine Is Batman's Batman / Empire n.193 , July 2005, p.79, English, illus / A brief interview with Sir Michael Caine about his role in the film BATMAN BEGINS.
  • O'HARA, Helen: Ra's Al Ghul: Ken Watanabe Unleashed... / Empire n.193 , July 2005, p.80, English, illus / A brief interview with actor Ken Watanabe about his role in the film BATMAN BEGINS.
  • GRAYDON, Danny: A Little Knight Music: A New Dynamic Duo... / Empire n.193 , July 2005, p.87, English, illus / A brief interview with composers James Newton Howard and Hans Zimmer about their collaboration together on the score for BATMAN BEGINS.
  • SCHILLING, Mark: World premieres: The importance of being eastern / Screen International (0307-4617) n.1506 , 24 June 2005, p.4,6, English, illus / Looks at the reasons for holding US blockbuster premieres like WAR OF THE WORLDS and BATMAN BEGINS in Japan.
  • BATMAN BEGINS / Film Review (0957-1809) v.Spec. n.58 , June 2005, p.6-59, English, illus / Special feature on BATMAN BEGINS, charting the history of Batman and including interviews with Christopher Nolan, Tim Burton, Joel Schumacher, Val Kilmer, Christian Bale, Michael Keaton, George Clooney & Gary Oldman, & Batmobile collection
  • RUSSO, Tom: Caped Fear / Premiere (0894-9263) v.18 n.9 , June 2005, p.66-72,135, English, illus / Discusses the making of BATMAN BEGINS with comments by actor Christian Bale and director Christopher Nolan. Also a note on Batman unrealised projects.
  • PIZZELLO, Stephen: Batman Takes Wing / American Cinematographer (0002-7928) v.86 n.6 , June 2005, p.36-40,42-44,46-48,50-54,56,58-59, English, illus / Director of photography Wally Pfister explains the detailed technical considerations need to bring BATMAN BEGINS to the screen.
  • MAGID, Ron: A Miniature Gotham / American Cinematographer (0002-7928) v.86 n.6 , June 2005, p.50, English / Visual-effects co-supervisors Dan Glass and Janek Sirrs discuss the use of miniatures to depict some of the action in Gotham city in BATMAN BEGINS.
  • MOTSKIN, Yon: Batman Begins / Creative Screenwriting (1084-8665) v.12 n.3 , May 2005, p.22-23, English, illus / Co-writer David S. Goyer talks about his work on BATMAN BEGINS. A brief extract from the script appears on p.76 of this issue.
  • Coming Soon: The Big Picture: Batman Begins / Empire n.190 , April 2005, p.8-9, English, illus / Brief preview of BATMAN BEGINS with comments from actor Christian Bale.
  • GROVE, David: Batman begins / Film Review (0957-1809) v.Spec. n.55 , December 2004, p.198-202,204-206,208,210,212,214-216, English, illus / Mini-dossier on Christopher Nolan's BATMAN BEGINS including comments from Christian Bale on his character; writer David Goyer on adapting the comic book's script; Michael Caine, Katie Holmes and Cillian Murphy on their respective role.
  • GOODRIDGE, Mike: Bale morphs towards Oscar / Screen International (0307-4617) n.1477 , 19 November 2004, p.15, English, illus / Christian Bale comments on changing his body shape for The MACHINIST and BATMAN BEGINS.
  • McCABE, Joseph: Dark Knight begins / StarBurst (0955-114X) n.315 , October 2004, p.70-71, English, illus / David Goyer talks about making BATMAN BEGINS.
  • Intermission: Batman speaks! / Empire n.179 , May 2004, p.48-49, English, illus / Profile of actor Christian Bale including a brief interview where Bale describes losing weight for the role of Trevor Reznik in The MACHINIST, and comments on his most recent project, playing Batman in Christopher Nolan's BATMAN BEGINS

References from Film Index International. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 01:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I struck out used sources. Alientraveller 07:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reception section

As anyone that may have picked up from reading this current discussion, I have been working up the reception section in a sandbox. Currently, Erik and I have been discussion the inclusion of Rotten Tomatoes' percentages. There has been recent movement to remove them as unencyclopedic. If you wish, you can see the discussion Erik and I had at User talk:Erik#BB recep and User talk:Bignole#BB review. It basically boils down to whether we think the statistical value of said percentages is significant enough to warrant mentioning. I have gone ahead and include Rotten Tomatoes' percentages in the work-up, but shall await further comments about whether or not to keep it, and any criticism with my work-up in general. Also on the table is the inclusion of Metacritic's ratings. They are also mentioned in the dicussion between Erik and I. Anyway, please take a look at the new reception section here.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 02:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

To reiterate the points made in the discussion between me and Bignole, the pros seem to be that Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic provide a rule of thumb to gauge the balance of reviews. Both review aggregators are competitors, hence it seems appropriate to have them side by side for comparison. However, they are commercial enterprises, so their encyclopedic value could be questioned. If the aggregators are not mentioned in the body of the article, I am sure that they would be appropriate as External links. I'm just wondering if they need to be cited, as it may not be completely encyclopedic in the scheme of things. I am leaning toward their inclusion in the most brief manner, and I think that statistically speaking, there are enough reviews from both aggregators to provide an adequate rule of thumb as to the film's critical reaction. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 03:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to thank Bignole for providing excellent content for the Critical reaction section that dissects the film in both positive and negative lights, as well as from secondary perspectives. This is a terrific step toward making Batman Begins a Featured Article. Nice work, Bigs! —Erik (talk • contrib) - 21:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know whether this is of any relevance but the BFI's Sight and Sound magazine has quite a good review here. It also has a succinct plot summary that can be used as a source (I don't know what people here think of citing secondary sources for plot summaries). Brad (talk) 17:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion! We don't generally cite secondary sources for the plot summary since the film is verifiable to all readers for the details. We could see if the review can be implemented, though -- we don't usually use film magazine reviews, and this would be a good change of pace. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 18:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Well the BFI certainly qualifies as a reliable source! I just came across it while searching for Insomnia stuff. Brad (talk) 18:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rebooting this collaboration drive (April 2008)

I'd like to help out with the FA drive for this article. First of all, what does everyone think this article still needs in order to reach FA? It appears that some sections are fairly short, and could either be expanded or merged with other sections, such as "Themes". Gary King (talk) 23:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Here are some things I noticed, as I have previously helped The Filmmaker get the Star Wars film articles to FA;
  • The reception section shows that most reviewers praised the film, 84% positive, but you would never know it, as the reception section proceeds to trash the movie for the most part. We should shoot for balance at minimum, by trimming some of the negative and adding more of, say, Eberts glowing review.
  • say a bit more about what the actual plot of the movie is in the lead, and in fact, many of the Star Wars articles have a middle paragraph on the plot, which would also be appropriate.
  • Another case of super generic image rationales, be specific as to why it is needed and what exactly it demonstrates.
  • There are several deadlinks and at least one citation needed
  • The special effects needs to be cited and expanded by about two-three sentences.
  • wikilink all the publishers in the references
  • check all the references for reliability; make sure no IMDB because it was determined they do not screen some of the trivia and other information they use.
  • there should probably be a mention of the merchandise associated with the movie and the marketing of the film.
  • As always, do that and copyedit it to get brilliant prose, so use several pairs of eyes and you should have a shiny FA star in your future. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 02:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually I disagree with your opinion of the reception section (biasely, admittedly). When I wrote it I chose to capture everything the reviewers were saying which included both a positive and a negative criticism of the film. You cannot make things bloatedly postive or negative. If you read the sentences word for word you'll see that they include things that the reviewers liked, as well as things they didn't like. We can't be nit-picky and ignore negative criticism just because they happened to give the film an overall postive rating. We're supposed to be neutral, and that doesn't necessarily mean have extreme positive and extreme negative reviews evenly balanced. I think it's misleading to say that the section is "trashes the movie", because it just happened to be that the first sentence of each paragraph happens to start with something negative; that's easily rectified, if necessary.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 02:44, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Maybe that is the issue... perhaps you could change it up a bit then :) Also, change my comment to this: Roger Ebert rarely effusively praised a movie in my experience as a dedicated reader, and as he trashed all the previous batman movies, a bit more of his thoughts on it could be worthwhile :) It is well written, it just seemed negative in tone. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 02:49, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I swapped some positions and broke a paragraph out on its own, but I don't know what else do give Ebert. He already has a rather large, two sentence section, and I dont' want to add too much and give undue weight to a single critic.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
How about this then, look over his review, and see if anything could be swapped or if this one is good the way it is. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 03:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm the one that wrote it; it's unlikely I'll find fault with my own selection. It's probably better that someone else who doesn't have a connection to the material see if there was something better that could have been pulled from his review. There's plenty of things in his review, but we cannot mention everything he says - I could fill an entire paragraph alone with everything he talks about.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I guess so... I'll post it here Ebert Review... Gary, you want to take a look? Any other comments of Eberts that could be switched with what we have, or do we have the most salient ones already? Judgesurreal777 (talk) 04:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Looks good to me now, although I personally want to focus more on other aspects of the article such as Development because I'm more of a technical person and am not as good with writing content based on other people's opinions. Gary King (talk) 04:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Well anyway, I hope the rest of my review helps. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 15:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)