Talk:Basque Nationalist Party

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[edit] Racism

Error, what's your interest in describing Basque nationalist as racist?Idiazabal 22:05, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The concept of a Basque race that should keep apart from evil maketos is the basis of Arana's nationalism. The early PNV was a racist party. Please don't remove that information. If you think that PNV's attitude to race has changed along time, then the article should make clear its ideology then and now. -- Error 01:12, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No, I can't agree anew. The assertion of Arana weren't cause racism but cause the "invasion" and the loose of Basque identity. He only tried to make survive us. There are lots of text of the time that would justify his attitude. Has you read the assertons against the Basque language and our legal system made by a lot of Spaniards? If you like it I can show them you.

[edit] PNV in July 1936

And what's that novelated history about the "Navarrese branch"? Do you know what happened with Navarre and the Statute? And it seems that you have not clear the differencies among nationalist and carlist. Why have you such interest in mixing both to try to make appear as if some part of PNV would be favorable to the coup, when it is totally false? Idiazabal 14:32, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
La cuestión nacional en los años 30:
"El PNV de Navarra hace pública declaración de que, dada su ideología fervientemente católica y fuerista, no se ha unido ni se une al Gobierno en la lucha actual, declinando en sus autores toda responsabilidad que derive de la declaración de adhesión al Gobierno aparecida en la prensa, sobre la que podemos asegurar, que no ha sido tomada por la autoridad suprema del Partido.", 20 julio de 1936, firmado Napar Buru Batzar.
"El Consejo regional del PNV de Álava con el interés vivamente expuesto de evitar luchas fratricidas y derramamientos de sangre entre hermanos alaveses y para impedir que la anarquía se adueñe de su pueblo ordena a todos los afiliados que realicen pacíficamente las actividades de su vida ciudadana, cumplan puntualmente sus obligaciones sociales y estén atentos en todo momento a las disposiciones de la autoridad militar y delegados que se han constituido. La tierra alavesa, siempre distinguida por su tradición constante de paz y laboriosidad, ha tendio y debe tener en cualqueir instante en los nacionalistas alaveses, alejados siempre de toda violencia por imperativos de sus normas doctrinale y democráticas, eficaces colaboradores de esos dos gloriosos postulados.".
[This version of the communiques is longer than that of the linked page. It's taken from El Nacionalismo Vasco. F. García de Cortázar, J. Manuel Azcona. Historia 16. 1999.]
Un sector del PNV apoya abiertamente el golpe, como el manifiesto de Jabier de Landaburu, diputado a Cortes y Manuel Ibarrondo: "Los suscritos, afiliados al PNV manifiestan: las circunstancias que venía atravesando la gobernación de España y que llevaban irremediablemente a la ruina moral y material de los ciudadanos han hecho que unos hombres de buena voluntad, a impulso exclusivo de su sano patriotismo, iniciaron y estén desarrollando activamente en estos dramáticos momentos una Cruzada de regeneración espiritual y fortalecimiento material. En el panorama que se nos ofrece no caben ya disyuntivas ante la anarquía reinante todavía en muchos pueblos españoles, ante la amenaza seria de un comunismo bárbaro que nada ha de respetar... ya no le cabe duda, y menos al que sea nacionalista vasco, el que desea para este país un mínimo de libertad y de bienestar que el comunismo nunca conseguiría... exhortamos a nuestros amigos nacionalistas a no impedir y coadyuvar al éxito inminente de quienes van a redimir tan precioso tesoro y a gritar con ellos viva España, viva el País Vasco".
-- Error 04:15, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Being Garcia de Cortazar who wrote, what would you hope? I would ask for blibliography more balanced than that of Cortazar, who you have to know that entered in the Francoism revitalizing aimed by Aznar and the Partido Popular, which textualy in its internal papers expressed as its goal: recuperar, discretamente, los valores asociados con el regimen anterior tan injustamente vilipendiados. And are these the bibliographical resources where you base the historical versions?
Are you denying that those PNV branches issued those communiques after the coup or not? If the above are factual texts, they are important, independently of who is quoting them. Of course, if you find that the real texts were different, or that PNV has some view on them, tell us. -- Error 01:16, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
By the way, has you red the Fraga's prologue to a recent book negationist of the Holocaust. Perhapps it would serve also to take some quotations for historicist purposes, although I doubt of the usefulness of such a book's historical statements.
No idea of that book. -- Error 01:16, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Or even about the Bombing of Guernica you would find plenty resources of people similar to Cortazar that had expressed during 40 years that the town was burnt also by the so-called rojo-separatistas. Or Cortazar ideological friends that still today states that the death toll was but a mere 150, based also in bibliographical writings. Are you favorable of such revisionist ideological current built under the Aznar regime?Idiazabal 12:33, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I am not quoting Cortázar. I am quoting PNV. Do you dispute the quotes or not? -- Error 01:16, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I dispute the quotes. Just in case a person or two would say it, as now we know Guevara or Arregui's opinions can't be taken as any parties branch. Surely you know yet that of the michelines. But if you want to resolve the dispute, it is easier, wasn't Irujo from the Navarrese PNV? The possible fact (if it would be as Cortazar states, which is obviously extremely biased againt the Basque nationalism, it doesn't mean in any way the two person's writen appeared (if it was so) in the middle of a war of propaganda subsequent with the rebelion would be PNV's branches official nor extra-official opinion.
And Cortazar book was published also in the context of a strong propaganda war that Aznar conducted against the Basque nationalism. To take anything from within such ultra-biased lampoons has not any sense. Idiazabal 19:25, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The releases are signed by the local Buru Batzar-s, so they go in the article. Landaburu and Ibarrondo represented themselves, even if they had some authority in PNV. Anyway, I have now qualified that Navarre and Alava were soon under rebel control, if you think it justifies the releases. About quoting from García de Cortazar, you have just said that "But as with any rebbutal, it gives us interesant data, i.e. its citations of Alfonso X el Sabio compilation or Fuero Real, Fuero Juzgo, etc." -- Error 02:19, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The releases or the Cortazar writing? You can take also Salas Larrazabal writings that said a mere hundred died in Guernica. Is it enough Salas writings to conclude it was so? Surely you can find more about the history, there has to have lots of documents appart from what Cortazar says. Surely if you read Pio Moa you can find even worst things. Are they true? Not. And Cortazar is precissely an author that enroled in Aznar's anti-nationalist propaganda war. He discredited himself.
But as I said you, there were Basque government Counselers and even the one who Aguirre appointed to be minister in the Madrid government that was precissely Navarrese, and as it, from the Navarrese branch and NBB. The fact that in the logic propaganda war made by the rebels, two persons signed a document didn't qualify it as how the party's. You can say and point out that there appeared such a document signed (if realy signed by them) by two persons. This is not "a branch" of the party as Arregui and Guevara aren't now "a branch". Garaikoetxea on the other hand headed a branch. Do you see the difference. An of course, if you take into account, as you should, that that document appeared in a Navarre where in such days 3.000 people were fusilladed in its roads and their house's backyards. The pretended use of such a stinky document is totaly malicious.
In the case of the Alavese, I can't say how it was, but there were very important people that participated actively in the BNP inteligency services, even also fusillades by the Francoist authorities in the postwar period while they worked for the Allies in the WWII. It is a little bit malicious also to try to pinpoint them as "a branch that sided with Franco". Has you thought in it? Cortazar did, and possitioned himself clearly.Idiazabal 12:13, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Historia 16

This version:

  • The Biscayne and Guipuzcoan branches, the more important in number, declared support for the republic, democracy and anti-Fascism in the following Spanish Civil War.
  • In the territory seized by the rebels, PNV members faced tough times:
    • The Alavese and Navarrese committees published notes refusing support to the Republic.
    • Some nationalists could flee to France or the Republican area.
    • Some faced the rebel forces, ending in prison or shot.
    • Some joined the Carlist batallions, either out of conviction or to avoid attacks.
The repression was focused on leftists, but nationalists were also targeted. Their premises and press were closed in that month of July.

is a summary of a paragraph from Entre el Pacto de San Sebastián y el de Santoña (1930-1937) , José Luis de la Granja Sainz, UPV, Historia 16 nº 271, November 1998, pages 31-32. I can copy it here if you ask, but I'll skip typing so much if I can. -- Error 02:59, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What happened with the paragraph:
There appeared published on 20th July a press release in which two personalities of the Navarrese branch supposedly was declaring no support for the legitimate government. (During those days 3.000 Navarrese people were fusilladed on roads and their house's backyards.)
Was it uncertain or what? And are your resources to say that the repression was mainly directed against leftist. For what I've seen, and I have some areas accute resources, they were fusilladed without any difference being them leftist or nationalist. If you want I can look at i.e. Arrasate list of fusillades and you can bet that most of them were nationalist. The same if we would look at Ondarreta prison listings.Idiazabal 13:00, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The releases are from ABB and NBB. If by "two personalities" you mean Ibarrondo and Landaburu, I think that it's enough to say that some PNV members joined the requetés. Historia 16 mentions "for instance, several members of the Aranzadi family and the Navarrese officer Ramón Goñi".
Historia 16 says:
La represión en Álava y Navarra, aún cebándose sobre todo en las izquierdas, también afectó al nacionalismo vasco, que fue proscrito con su prensa y sus centros quedaron clausurados a partir de julio de 1936.
I haven't looked for Alavese data, but Page 14 says:
[...]si no a un minucioso plan, sí a una idea extendida: lo que denominaban "limpieza del personal de izquierdas". Partiendo de las cifras que proporciona el detallado recuento realizado por Al-Taffaylla en cada pueblo resulta que sobre un total de 2.564 muertos en Navarra (la casi totalidad nacidos o residentes en la provincia) el 80% murieron en 1936.
[...]Lo hizo en noviembre, cuando más de mil quinientos navarros habían perdido la vida en las cunetas de muchas carreteras, en los campos o en los fosos de la Ciudadela de Pamplona.
[...]Los pueblos que más la padecieron fueron los de la Ribera, en los que se habían producido fuertes conflictos sociales en demanda de tierra y la mayor parte de los asesinados eran jornaleros y obreros, aunque también había empleados, maestros, abogados, médicos. En poblaciones como, por ejemplo, Azagra, Cárcar, Lodosa, Mendavia, Sartaguda, en la ribera del Ebro, el número de muertos en esas fechas se sitúa en torno al 30 por mil de su población total en 1930. El caso más extremo es el de Sartaguda, que recibió el sobrenombre de pueblo de las viudas, donde la cifra llegó al 68 por mil de su población. La mayoría eran de izquierdas, sin especificar militancia concreta, o pertenecían a la UGT.
Is it relevant the exact number of victims to this article?
Arrasate and Ondarreta are in Guipuzcoa, so the proportion of victims should be different to Alava and Navarre. -- Error 00:25, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Then, where is the documented base to state that the repression was directed mainly to leftist? in socialist publications? If you look at nationalist publications be sure that they will go to say the opposite.
If you still feel that the exact number of victims between 18th and 20th is important to this article, please provide those "nationalist publications". I don't know if that Al-Tafaylla document is a "socialist publication". -- Error 02:01, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And I ask anew. Wasn't a Basque nationalist from the Navarrese branch who entered in the Republican government justice ministery to represent the Basque nationalism? Then how is it that you are trying to charge the nationalism as sided with the Francoist, even although as you knows 3.000 people were being fusilladed in those days in their backyards.
Irujo was in Andoain on 18th July. I suppose that were he in Navarre that day, he would be one of the Some faced the rebel forces, ending in prison or shot. or Some nationalists could flee to France or the Republican area. As you can read in that link, Irujo didn't take part of the decisions of NBB. -- Error 02:01, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Perhapps it is going to be as the racism you don't let opportunity to pinpoint, although at the end in is the Real Madrid of Madrid (the city of Spanish tolerance) who appears as racist and xenophobic as yesterday.Idiazabal 14:12, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Surnames

Just in case, the rules for the Basque surnames[1]: "Son socios originarios los que gozan de 4 apellidos vascos; adoptados los que ostentan un apellido vasco entre los 4 primeros, y los otros 3 extranjeros de padres nacidos en Euskaria; y adictos los que sólo tienen dos apellidos vascos entre los 4 primeros y otro heredado de padres nacidos en el extranjero o quienes soportan cuatro apellidos extranjeros heredados de padres nacidos en los dominios vascos". -- Error 02:20, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

¿Surnames? Have you red the article from where you've taken the cite? There are a lot more of assertions, as i.e. "La raíz milenaria de Euzko y que Euzkadi es la patria de los vascos". Which is just what I said in the article about him. (I don't know why you directed me to the Arana's article to debate about, but now you take a sentence of Arana and extend it to the Party and bring it here.) Perhapps I should let you to write about the Basques and the nationalist and devote myself to Fraga and the Spanish butchers and torturers still in a sort of anti-basque mission.
Very encyclopedic indeed.Idiazabal 12:45, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Again, are you disputing that the surname rules are part of the initial PNV rules or not? -- Error 01:44, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Surely you are speaking about Arana's writings. They are yet enough described in his article. Obviously you don't like the Basque nationalist, but if your bibliography is taken from Cortazar or any other of the anti-basque lampooners so well paid by a lot of Spanish fundations, perhapps you should ask yourself if it is appropiate for a encyclopedia.
Besides, you've taken the text from an article about Arana's centenary, then it would apply in any case to him, not to the Basque Nationalist Party where you've taken it.Idiazabal 20:28, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The quote is from the PNV rules for membership. They are probably written by some of the Arana brothers. Anyway here you have Manifiesto y organización del Partido Nacionalista Vasco aprobados en la Asamblea Nacionalista celebrada en Bilbao el día 8 de diciembre de 1906. Article 3 (Page 7/36):
Para tener derecho a ser afiliado del Partido Nacionalista Vasco, se requiere:
La prueba de la oriundez vasca del solicitante, con uno al menos de sus cuatro primeros apellidos de procedencia euzkérica indudable.[...]
So three years after the death of Arana, the party was still asking for one out of four Basque surnames.
And Contemporary Nationalism : Civic, Ethnocultural, and Multicultural Politics by David Brown, page 82
In 1894, membership of Arana's `Basque Club', which preceded the PNV, had required the ability to show by surname the possession of four male Basque grandparents, but by 1908 the resultant low membership meant that this had to be relaxed to one grandparent. Moreover, the issue of race began ...""'
-- Error 02:08, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
La prueba de la oriundez vasca del solicitante, con uno al menos de sus cuatro primeros apellidos de procedencia euzkérica indudable.[...]
That's one surname in four. A little bit different of what you said previously, indeed. I would say that it wasn't any barbarian thing in a time when thousands of Basques had been expelled to Argentina, Mexico, Venezuela... Ask to any other country subjected to military occupation and relocation, destruction of their natural language and culture, even in present day conflicts.
Obviously you don't like Basque nationalist.Idiazabal 02:24, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Ha ha ha... Have you passed across the article you've linked to reach until that paragraph, while leaving those others unred?:

Un siglo después siguen dando guerra su espectro y sus rudimentos identitarios. Alguien me comentaba una vez, en el transcurso de una tertulia, que el fenómeno catalán da miedo, mientras que el vasco cabrea al carpetovetónico crédulo cuya eucaristía es el telediario. Es el conjuro, o la conjura, que no cesa. Resulta engorroso desperdiciar saliva arguyendo que no se debe jamás, en ese ejercicio historicista y puntual que es el periodismo recto, proclamar arbitrariedades surgidas de otros tiempos, de testimonios de un mismo cariz, de crónicas interesadas. O de unas coyunturas específicas, en el caso del aranismo, que llevaban a la nación colectiva y arbitraria del post-carlismo a la decadencia, la decrepitud, la corrupción nauseabunda, la monarquía de baraja y el liberalismo meapilas que iba detrás del cura ora con un cirio, ora con una estaca. Imagen y proceso que hoy, pringue demagógico, se sigue tratando como noticia de actualidad retrospectiva (en lo que a Sabino Arana se refiere). Y ello, en un marco reiterado con el estribillo de que ya estamos en el siglo XXI. Sabino Arana y el PNV del XIX, también. Se suele asociar mecánicamente el nombre de Sabino, fundador del PNV-EAJ, merced a los medios de comunicación manipulables a dedo desde La Moncloa y a través de otras campañas de continuidad mediática y madrileñista, con el racismo excluyente. Nadie se para a pensar que Sabino Arana, en su fugaz pero dinámica existencia de 38 años, fue contemporáneo de la abolición de los Fueros tras el Pacto de Vergara que diera fin a una de las guerras civiles (y guerrillas) más sanguinarias de que noticia se tiene en Europa. La tercera carlistada, no les quepa duda, fue la otra hecatombe de 1936-39. Los gudaris vascos, en esas fechas, se mantienen fieles a la República, aun desde principios y programas políticamente enfrentados entre sí. Aguirre, lendakari entonces, se decanta por la legalidad vigente aun a sabiendas de que, si se vence al fascio, tendría que seguir luchando por un programa opuesto al síndrome de Rousseau de los progresistas a quienes apoya.
En la trinchera de enfrente, los que iban a rodar "Raza", guión de cine de Franco pasado por el filtro obediente de Sáenz de Heredia, seguían hablando del racismo de los vascos. Sin pararse a pensar que la vida del fundador del PNV discurrió en una época deprimida, de tumultos, latrocinios e ideología de café. Lo más significativo, que las tiendas hasta entonces llamadas "de coloniales" se cambiaban el rótulo y ponían "ultramarinos". Y que en lo más hondo del aranismo latía una negativa a ser español por decreto en una España tenebrosa, paupérrima y sin rumbo. Era el no al proyecto de un general Prim, progresista (y militar) que deseaba instalar en el trono vacante a un Hohenzollern, y de un Amadeo de Saboya pasmado y sin brújula que ni siquiera sabía castellano, todo ello en una Restauración de esperpento, en un sistema parademocrático y agusanado por el denostado pero inmune caciquismo que compraba votos a cambio de prebendas, canonjías y fueros incumplidos o desarraigados por la fuerza. Alguien tenía que decir lo que pensaban muchos vascos más allá de la leyenda que les atribuía un origen incierto y una lengua diabólica, sólo sincretizada con el romance a través de diversos neologismos añadidos por la técnica. Las anécdotas al respecto en la vida parlamentaria de Sabino Arana son regocijantes como todo hecho histórico y pretérito. Ante todo, era un raro que, elegido diputado, proclama en una ponencia que "se impongan onerosos arbitrios a los pianos mecánicos o de manubrio (los organillos) porque desvirtúan y envilecen el carácter de las romerías vascas". También llega a proponer que en los talleres de la cárcel de Larrinaga, que ha sido varias veces su involuntario hotel, "se separe a los detenidos que sepan euskera de los que hablan en castellano para evitar que aquéllos aprendan blasfemias". Sin duda alguna, se pueden argüir sus apreciaciones acerca de la feminidad de los andares majos del torero en contra de una estética de levantador de pedruscos que le era más grata. No trata el fundador de establecer superioridad: sólo distinción, aunque su concepto de ella pase por el feísmo.

I would say that the rest of the article is more explanatory than just the cite you've cut conveniently from its contex. What about:

"El pobre es explotado y tratado como bestia por industriales, mineros, comerciantes y propietarios (..) Habéis perdido las elecciones (el PSOE) porque el oro corrompe al individuo y lo aleja de la tradición espiritual, Jainkoa eta Lagi Zarrak, de los vizcaínos (..) Los capitalistas de Europa han traído la mano de obra extranjera y con ella la blasfemia, el crimen y el librepensamiento (..) Nunca hemos visto desplegar la fuerza pública contra los capitalistas obstinados en sostener los beneficios: siempre y únicamente contra los obreros que piden los suyos".

Should we conclude from such a cite that he was some kind of Christian-Marxist?

I'd say that it was the anti-Liberal Catholic doctrine of the age, but I may be wrong. I have linked it because it's the only place where I could find a direct quote of the surname rules. Did the early PNV have a social program towards workers besides expelling the non-Basque ones? If so, you could add it to the article. -- Error 01:44, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Anew, you've taken an article about Arana, and from it a mere paragraph out of context, and put it as if it was from PNV. It borders the pure intoxication technic.
And your last question... how would I say, don't you know the PNV program toward workers and still are speaking about expelling anybody? Well, it makes it clear enough what's your point in your interest in Basque issues. Surely your Santiago Matamoros is a good example of your points of viow. Idiazabal 20:28, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Non sequitur. Ad hominem -- Error 02:08, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Let me say, Error, that it seems you're in a little bit stubborn crussade against Basque nationalism and by extenssion against the Basques and the Basque issue. Even in genetic studies you pretend that, as when Galileo, it is better not to mention or acknowledge them because it might go against such anti-basque crussade.

Moreless in the same way the torture, continued today against Basques, is better not to be mentioned. Of course the biography of Fraga the Butcher must be polished and there you are to accomplish with the hard work, as long as your Basque crussade leaves you time for it.

Have I written recently about torture? Where? If you want to add some facts about Fraga, you know where to go. -- Error 01:44, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why? I can perfectly explain a lot of Basque attitudes from the point of viow of the Basques expelled from their land by the thousands, populating Argentina, Venezuela, etc. etc. cause the wars and the Spanish military occupation of the Basque Country all along the XIX, which was what Arana (being himself exilee and five times imprisoned) explained on his rude words. And a XX century of tortures, prohibitions, confiscations, etc. All these are Basque issues.Idiazabal 20:28, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Manzanas traigo. -- Error 02:08, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But this is not new. It was yet in the doctrines of Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera and its 98's Generation intelectuals:

Hoy, ahora, mañana, y va para largo, el vocablo 'nacionalista' se ha desaforado. No es la primera vez. Ya los joseantonianos afirmaban a través de sus núcleos de propaganda imperial y de noventaiochismo decadente y lacrimoso que "los vascos separatistas se creen una raza superior". No existe tal cosa. Es decir, residir en Euskal Herria es un continuo renuncio al tedio, créanlo. Y una continua incoherencia entre entidad e identidad. Se impugna, desde la irracionalidad de defender la ignorancia, no el despliegue de facultades intelectivas, que los vascos deseen consolidar y difundir su idioma.

Which is consistent with Garcia de Cortazar and those other ultranationalist you've shown as bibliography. There are plenty literature of those people, included the socialistes, that were lampooning the Basque culture and advocating for the extintion of the Basque language. And it seems you're a follower of such dictrines. Idiazabal 14:57, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Until 1933

The article from Historia 16 I mentioned above says that one difference between PNV and ANV was that ANV was open to immigrants, while PNV required its members ser oriundo vasco until 1933. -- Error 03:28, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh, Historia16. What a pain that they are totaly formed by members of the Socialist party.
I don't know about any affiliations of Historia 16. -- Error 02:03, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If you are going to take parties documents, take the socialist ones to describe the socialist entries in the wikipedia and the nationalist for theirs. Or do you believe that Jimenez Losantos would be a good source to write the articles about Psoe?
You can always dig PNV rules from before 1933 and check. And, for some issues it is convenient to contrast with other sources. As you said: But as with any rebbutal, it gives us interesant data,. -- Error 02:03, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And by the way, we saw yesterday in Madrid who the racist is in Spain.Idiazabal 14:15, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] ETA was not created by PNV!

"ETA was created by members of the Basque Nationalist Party in 1958 who were dissatisfied by the Party's supposedly moderate policies." This is not completely true. ETA was created by young intellectuals, some of them from the PNV youth organization EGI but some other not. And PNV has never support ETA's terrorism

Corrected, I think. --Error 16:05, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from JEL

Either merge, or throw out as nonnotable. That way you don't need to worry about discrepancy between JEL in article name and JeL in article, and you have the place for the three-character-disambiguation page which only needs to spell out the article and link to this article. Gene Nygaard 01:52, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I've done a rather blunt merge. Feel free to trim or rearrange as desired. John Vandenberg 05:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Pnv02.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)