User:Bardsandwarriors/MIS-debates

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Copied from User_talk:JzG 22:00 UK time, Sat 12 May 2007

[edit] Men in skirts

Men in skirts (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) Regarding: 09:07, 5 May 2007 JzG (Talk | contribs) deleted "Men in skirts" (CSD G4: Recreation of Deleted Material)

I'm curious what the previously deleted material was? I can't find a previous AfD for Men in skirts, so am wondering if there was another article or something?

I'm not sure where I stand one way or the other on the article btw, but am curious why this got speedied rather than going to AfD. Mdwh 23:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

iirc, JzG has tried to get this article removed before, and failed. This time he reckons he doesn't need excuses, so has made up a lie instead. The article was created by me, from nothing. I received no warning or discussion, and no notice was posted on the article. He just turned up and deleted it, presumably for personal reasons. If anyone knows about wiki appeal procedures, and procedures to get admins de-adminified, I would be grateful for the help. Bards 10:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I am a POV pusher? First I've heard of it. And I have not been thwarted, ever, by anyone. I was just about to post, for the interest of other readers, that you seem to have pushed for a block of the user called Maninaskirt (see above, and here). If you think I am him, you are wrong. I am me, and only me. What do you have against men and/or skirts, or the combination of them? Bards 10:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
The skirts for men crowd are the POV pushers, and one on particular has been vexatious ion the extreme under three successive accounts. Things that have no real existence outside the Bravehearts forums have no place on Wikipedia, as we decided before. Guy (Help!) 10:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't know my way around much of wikipedia yet. Where is the record of that decision? I admit it is a potential grey area, and I have tried to be careful. Your assertion that it doesn't exist beyond the bravehearts is not true. The online forums provide a meeting place for an often widely scattered, but philosophically cohesive group of people; and as a source of support. These people meet up in Real Life, and have common Real Life issues to overcome, as described in the article. Offline documented sources, I admit, are thin on the ground, but there are some. Bards 10:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
You accuse me of lying above; when you say you recall me trying and failing to have this removed, you are, I think, quite wrong. The concept, yes, I have tried and succeeded in getting that nuked, Lar remembers the debates over Male Unbifurcated Garment (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs), Men's fashion freedom (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs), undue weight in sections of Skirt and dress (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) and High-heeled shoe (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs), pushing of links to kiltmen.org and the Bravehearts forums, and so on. I remember them too. We debated this, the issue of men wearing skirts was decided to be a minor thing, and adequately covered in the section in skirt and dress. Notable concept in relation to the skirt, adequate support for an article on the kilt, the so-called fashion freedom movement? Virtually invisible and lacking dispassionate review - it's that concept which the deleted Men in skirts (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) sought to advance, making it a POV fork of skirt and dress, which is why several previous incarnations at different titles were removed. I have no particular interest in trawling throught he whole bloody thing again, as I did at least twice before with Dr1819 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) and Mugaliens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log), because the matter is, I think, well settled. The problem here is that a small number of individuals want to take ethnic dress (including kilts), add the macabi skirt and Tom Cruise, and extend this to assert that skirt wearing by Western men is widespread and normal. Sean Connery and Samual L Jackson seen in kilts, therefore a middle aged businessman turning up to a meeting in a skirt suit and court shoes is unremarkable. Major logical disconnect. Guy (Help!) 11:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
It would be very remarkable! (And, therefore, worthy of inclusion?). <joke. But I'm not here to discuss the arguments. I accept that it is debatable and could go either way, and always while developing the article that was in my mind. I'm sure I could put up a very good argument about the merits of the expansion into whole articles of notable, troubled, minority issues; and I am certain I could find hundreds of similar articles. ...
I know Lar from another forum years ago - a cogent and persuasive man. But there are at least a dozen similar forums on the web, each with slightly different angle on it. You can expect more, if it is now your job to delete MIS/MUG-related articles - people like Me and Lar, and some like maninaskirt.
I am discussing this with you because of your unilateral, un-noticed, un-discussed deletion of my article, which I and others unwittingly put a lot of work into. If it is proved and you keep having to dig up the arguments, why not collate them so that you can direct people to them? Especially if, as in this case, you don't want to mightily piss off bona fide relative-newbie wikipedians (like me). Talking to you has softened the blow a little, but I still don't like it. Bards 12:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
It is not "debatable", it was debated. It is not "could go either way", it went the way of delete, several times. It is not "unilateral", there were numerous debates and other admins support deletion. Wikipedia is not pitch-till-ya-win, especially for blatant attempts to advance an agenda. Guy (Help!) 12:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
You still have me confused with someone else.
"blatant attempts to advance an agenda" = not me. I wrote the article to describe a little-known, interesting, and notable aspect of society, which I know a lot about. I am a cutting-edge, creative kind of guy ;) and I know of quite a few things like that, many of which I could write about. The problem is that with such subjects, providing offline references is always going to be a problem; and you could reasonably accuse me of original research with some of them.
"pitch-till-ya-win" = not me either. I created this article once, and I won't try again. I have no doubt there will be a lot more people who attempt it!
non-debatable = not me. I said that to me, it was debatable in my own mind. You have debated it with other people and won. Perhaps against me you would not win. Who knows.
My point is this: there must be a procedure, or some wiki advice somewhere, to prevent this problem. A newbie puts a stack of work into an article, not realising a similar one has been deleted; he gets opinions and contributions from a dozen other people (eg. here). He spends hours researching the web for sources. He assumes that if there is a problem, there will be a diuscussion. But one day, with absolutely no warning, it all disappears in a puff of high-handed adminship. This could happen to any controversial subject matter. The way this has been handled is a smack in the face. Bards 12:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
No, I don't have you confused with anybody. The fact that the subject is inappropriate for inclusion is not your fault, you did not know the history. That happens, doesn't reflect on you at all. The fact that you worked hard on it - apparently egged on by those who did know better, looking at the history - is regrettable, and I am sorry for the inconvenience. There is a way of preventing this, known as salting the earth, and some of the titles used have been salted; others were not. It relies on us thinking of the various titles at which a subject might be created, and until recently there was also a tendency for salt to expire (less so now). One thing you need to know: existence of forums, and posts on them, is not in any way a reliable source or indication for inclusion. Guy (Help!) 12:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
It might be possible to salt the earth permanently with a generic template which optionally directs people to the relevant article, or the discussion behind it? - a type of non-automatic redirect, simple, prettified and user-friendly. That would help readers and writers. It would probably make searching more efficient aswell. The "deleted page" template seems too joyless to use commonly. Thank you, anyway, for taking the time to answer my questions. (I still think there will be more like me recreating this article, and you're going to need a system of some sort). Bards 14:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I've now had a good read of the AfD of MUG last year, and of your other discussions above. I think you are wrong about it, but I can see the water has been muddied, and unless I had been aware of that, my article was bound to end up similar to the deleted one. (And no, I am not a puppet of anyone else, and no, it was not recreated content. It probably reads in a similar way, because MIS guys see common MIS-related issues). But admins are people like anyone else, and need to be persuaded: MUG is a relatively new term mainly used on the web. MIS is a relatively new movement (although it has had its precursors, eg. mainly by fashion designers since the 1960s). The various shops selling skirts and modern kilts for men are a relatively new phenomenon. Guys who wear skirts are relatively creative, adventurous types of people. Trouble is, the movement is not documented except in a small handful of recent books (eg Andrew Bolton's Men In Skirts), exhibitions (eg. see the Victoria & Albert "Men in Skirts", which also showed at New York); and a slew of evangelistic websites devoted to extolling their virtues. I think the web has, to a very large extent, allowed such men to get together and build each other's confidence, allowing the movement to get off the ground. This has resulted in a proliferation of news articles about it (for instance have a look at http://www.imff.net, which archives many of them). Anyway, I'll give wikipedia another 5 years to catch up with the latest developments in cutting edge men's fashion :) (And no, I am not a puppet of anyone else! I am just me, and only me, with similar views and information as other MIS advocates.) However, I share your love of bicycles and music, so you can't be all bad. Bards 15:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
No danger of assuming puppetry, a 30-second look at your contribs makes that plain. I can't reply in more detail right now, I'm in the middle of something. Get back to you later. Guy (Help!) 16:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I do hope that comment wasn't directed at me. Whether someone is a POV-pusher or not, I am concerned about assumptions being made on AfDs of other articles, and the AfD process being bypassed. I'm worried about POV-pushing on your part - speedy deleting articles because you appear to have an axe to grind against this particular user. Both myself and Damian_Yerrick are clearly not anything to do with the guy wh's been making these articles. I'll volunteer to put the article through AfD myself if you like - if the consensus is to delete, then fine. Mdwh 09:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
As I have made abundantly clear above, the editor I consider a problem is the one who has edited as Dr1819 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log), Mugaliens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log), Dr1819 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) and Man in a skirt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log). That user, too, accused me of haivng an agenda. Consensus after numerous debates was that it's the other way around. Guy (Help!) 10:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Consensus was, according to last year's debate, that "MUG" or "Male Unbifurcated Garment" was a neologism, and the article was deleted mainly on that basis. I have stated that my contribution was not a recreation of that article (the reason given for your deletion this year). So why, exactly, did you delete it? - and why are you not apologising now, and offering to restore it and begin a proper AfD process? It also bothers me a little, that last year's article was not simply renamed to something else, rather than deleted. For all your rational arguments, JzG, and despite that I can see you're not a bad guy, I think you have some hidden subconscious thing going on which is leading you to be negative at every turn. Bards 10:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
That was one of the numerous debates. Another say the fashion freedom article deleted and redirected to skirt and dress, where there is a section which covers this with appropriate weight. Several titles were tried and rejected. The whole concept was discussed at nauseating length and the conclusion was that anything more than that constitutes undue weight. We have kilt, we have skirt and dress, we have cross-dressing, and what is not covered i those three articles does not appear to be significant. Guy (Help!) 11:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
What I wrote was significant because it was about a group of people. "Men in skirts" are comparable with Victorian dress reform#Rational Dress Society, but from the perspective of the opposite gender. Both 'kilt' and 'skirt or dress' are about types of garment. The people I described may wear either of those classes of garment, and others, and they are by definition and intent a different thing to cross-dressers. Now that you've deleted it, there is nothing to describe that group of people, and the issues and problems they face.
I also disagree with last year's decision. There are numerous articles about specific types of skirts and dresses, which are not covered in "skirt and dress" - which only acts as a generalised introduction to the subject. See Category:Skirts and Category:Dresses, which I created and populated earlier this year to group together those articles. There is no reason why there should not be an article about types of skirt designed for men, such as those sold by Midas Clothing. In fact, such an article would complete the set, and compliment the other articles, very nicely. The term "MUG" is probably a neologism coined in the last 5 years or so by online forums, and personally I've never liked it; but "Skirts for men" would be a reasonable title for it.
However, as I've said before this is not about my or your opinion. It is about your decision to delete, based on your erroneous assumptions and (as I now believe) rooted in personal prejudices, which are unduly colouring your entire outlook. Bards 15:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
You assert that it's comparable with Victorian dress reform#Rational Dress Society. I notice two things: first, that is attributed to a questionable source; second, it is not a stand-alone article but a single paragraph in a larger article (just as Skirt and dress#Male wear is a section in a larger article). No substantial external sources have been cited to indicate that it is more significant than that article states. And yes, it's obvious that you don't agree with last year's decision - neither did the people who came along from the Bravehearts forums - but that doesn't actually change anything. We have a few references about the brief vogue exemplified by Cruise and Beckham, some forums advancing an agenda, and pretty much nothing else. Guy (Help!) 15:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
If someone wrote an article about the Rational Dress Society, it would be be separated into another article and linked. Perhaps someone will. Is that your last defence? All your other defences have been answered. If references are the problem, you should insist on having them, not delete the article. How many other objections will you raise, and be defeated on? I think your phrase, "pitch-till-ya-win", applies more to you than to anyone else here. Bards 16:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
<- De-indenting...

So would you please restore the references from the deleted article to someone's userspace (either mine or Bards) so that we can use them to cite sources in Skirt and dress#Male wear? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 16:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)