Talk:Bard College at Simon's Rock

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[edit] School Name

There has recently been a renaming of the school by the administration, and it was announced by the Provost Mary Marcy. The school is now, apparently, named Bard College at Simon's Rock. However, this has not yet been made public to the... well... public. Should this be noted on wikipedia before any publice announcement, or just left as is for the time being even though it has been mentioned by the provost of the school? Retinarow 01:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Please do not move the page until an official announcement is made. I would also prefer that we not mention the change until it is officially announced and can be cited to something other than "Mary Marcy said so." Reporting it here would be a violation of several wikipedia policies (e.g. WP:V, WP:OR - the name change is not, at present, verifiable by reliable sources and constitutes original research. Furthermore is no need to cause confusion or to prempt the schools own PR operation. GabrielF 01:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia, not Rumorpedia. Before making a change like this, you need written sources that you can cite. That could be a newspaper article -- has the Eagle covered it yet? -- or an online source such as the college Web site. --FOo 05:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's a reliable source (the school's own blog). I don't feel like editing the page now, but it's clearly confirmed at this point, for anyone who wants to edit the page. --Adam Atlas 14:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Simon's Rock will be transitioning to the new name throughout 2007, primarly during the summer between two academic years. As it stands, the college's name on all official correspondence has not changed; there is no reason for the wikipedia article to have moved yet. Further, I suggest that the article be named simply "Simon's Rock" (which is more historically accurate, represented by the official seal, etc) and all other past, present, and future names should redirect there. --Gruepig 07:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

"Simon's Rock" is probably the best name, considering that this article is about the entire history of the college and not just the possible future of the college. Currently, the "Bard College at Simon's Rock" name is vaporware -- it has been announced but not yet actually used. --FOo 03:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Origin of name "Simon's Rock" -- I'd like to see a footnote for the "neighborhood child" story. (Incidentally, when I was a student, I was told that the name was biblical in origin (Simon = St. Peter, Rock of St. Peter = the Church); I know there are a few other places in the Great Barrington area that have similar names with biblical resonances-- though I'm afraid I don't have a footnote for this myself. Mfulvio 14:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
That's from the Course Catalog, and I believe the story appears in some promotional material as well. Jesuschex 16:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
This makes some sense, since the facilities on upper campus (including Kellogg) belonged to the former seminary on that site (Rose Cottage?) (Incidentally historical records [1] show that a Nancy Kellogg ran the seminary, which could explain why the former chapel is now named Kellogg Music Center) Cowbert 21:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I was the one who moved the page to Bard College at Simon's Rock and made similar changes within the page itself. The official school site had been totally revamped as of 11:00 AM EST today to be BC@SR, and I changed the wiki it so that it would be in congruence with the independent school website. As of right now it seems that the school has gone back on the website change for the time being. What to do? 70.18.100.82 21:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Official rollover to the new name (i.e. "Bard College at Simon's Rock") is currently planned for August 1, 2007. 69.205.43.124 02:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

As of right now, the heading on the page at http://www.simons-rock.edu says "Simon's Rock College of Bard", but the street address at the bottom says "Simon's Rock of Bard College" and the copyright notice says "Bard College at Simon's Rock".

I think someone is playing silly buggers with the college Web site. :) --FOo 03:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

And today, the copyright notice says "Simon's Rock of Bard College". Still no sign of "Bard College at Simon's Rock".
As much as some folks may like the proposed new name, it is evidently not adopted yet, and it is inappropriate to move this article in advance of the adoption. Be patient. --FOo 17:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I am pretty durn sure the name of the college when I got my B.A. in 1992 was Simon's Rock College, and therefore I am re-adding that as one of the names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshNarins (talk • contribs) 21:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I am pretty sure that it was never "Simon's Rock College," but please provide a source if I'm wrong. This, in 1991, has it as "Simon's Rock College of Bard": [2] Jesuschex (talk) 05:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I know it was SRC of B in 1990, when I got my AA, and that it had a different name in 1992, when I got my BA. My diplomas are in storage, however. JoshNarins (talk) 17:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

I expanded the page a little, adding sections about the name and the history of the school. I'd ultimately like to make a section about the academics of the school, one about student life (no, not the office of student life, just what students do, clubs, the town, etc.), and clean up the "trivia" section (ultimately I'd like to remove that section in favor of incorporating it into other sections, like I did a little of). Of course, change things as you wish, 'cause that's what Wikipedia's about, eh? Jesuschex 01:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and can anyone get photos on the page? I'd put some in, but I'm by no means a photographer. Jesuschex 01:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

If you check the SRC livejournal there is a post of canpus pictures72.166.213.81 04:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SRC Userboxes

Dear Fellow Rockers,

I have revamped the userbox for SRC. You can view it at: [3]. If you add this to your user page, your user page will be placed in Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: Simon's Rock College of Bard. For instructions on how to add this userbox to your user page and more information see WP:Userboxes.

Share and enjoy, GabrielF 23:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bulding construction

Umm, i'm not quite sure of the actual dates, but i know for a fact that the science center was not completed until at least 1998, as opposed to 1996 as the article currently states. I entered SRC as a student in the Fall of 1997 and construction had just begun on the Fisher Science Center. Likewise, the athletic center was also completed at a later date,but i am unsure as to exactly when. If someone who feelsa little more motivated to maintain the accuracy of Wikipedia, they may want to go back and re-check their research. Thanks.

Construction of the Fisher Science Center began in March 1997 and it opened for classes in January of 1998. [4] --FOo 20:19, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name change non-starter

Although the supposed name change was announced several months ago, it has not happened yet. The college continues to send out mailings in the names "Simon's Rock College of Bard", "Simon's Rock College", and "Simon's Rock", still uses these names on its Web site, and is still commonly known by these names.

I suggest that the page move was substantially premature. What was announced was not that the college has changed its name, but that it plans to change its name in the future. The name change has not happened yet, as evidenced by the continuing use of the "Simon's Rock College".

In other words, by moving the article to "Bard College at Simon's Rock", we have mistaken an engagement for a marriage. --FOo 06:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. When the change was announced, it was, in fact, announced that the change would technically go into full effect during the summer of 2007. However, it was added that it would be a slow process, and that various things would start changing as soon as the announcement went out. So, the name of the Wikipedia article could have changed this summer, yes. But it could also have changed at any time between the announcement of the change and this summer. It's much more like we've taken an engagement to mean that from now on, the two people involved will spend the rest of their lives together, which is implied in an engagement. Just, the marriage itself hasn't technically happened yet. Jesuschex 18:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
The marriage hasn't technically happened yet. Precisely. So it is incorrect for an encyclopedia article to refer to the college as Mr. and Mrs. Bard College At Simon's Rock. :)
To be quite honest, there is a general conflict or tension in many Wikipedia articles between representation of this year's version of something, and representing the history of it. However, in this case, naming the article as it is means taking next year's version as more credible than the current usage. --FOo 08:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
If you really want to be pedantic, you might say that the marriage analogy is technically incorrect, as according to legal documentation, there hasn't been a legal entity called Simon's Rock anything since 1984. The school is registered in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts as a foreign corporation of Bard College, and has been, since 1984. [5] I'm not sure what analogy would be used to represent commercial tradenames (since basically, that is what the phrase "Simon's Rock" is currently). Cowbert 22:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Notable" Alumni and Faculty

Please be sure that persons you list in this section satisfy the WP Notability guidelines. Cowbert 22:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bill Scannell

I'd like to understand why GabrielF finds Bill Scannell not to be notable. A quick Google search reveals several links that I would contend establish notability: Wired: Privacy Activist Takes on Delta, Wired: The Man Who Helped Kill CAPPS II, NPR: High-Tech Passports Stir Privacy Concerns. Does this make him less notable than some guy who was in a bad "reality-TV" show? Does GabrielF have some personal agenda for excluding Scannell? -- DaveSeidel 15:26, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't like it when people use wikipedia for self-promotion. That's not what we're about. Having helped draft the policy in question, I'm not convinced that Scannell actually is notable as far as wikipedia is concerned, although I think its probably a judgment call. I'm honestly not sure if an article about him would survive an attempt at deletion. I'm not convinced that the Real World guy is notable either and I seriously considered removing him awhile ago but, at least in that case, the entry cites a specific event to tie his notability to. A reader will actually have a sense of who he is and could click on a link to learn more information. Its pretty trivial, but at least its informative. What does it mean to a reader that "civil rights activist" Bill Scannell went to SR? Nothing. If they haven't heard his name, and they probably haven't, than they aren't going to learn anything about him on wikipedia except his name and a nebulous description of his profession. I think Scannell is fighting the good fight, but I don't see any encyclopedic value to his listing himself on this page. GabrielF 17:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I understand your point about self-promotion, but how does that justify that fact that you reverted my restoration of the link? I'm not, and in fact don't even know him. And how about the references I cited, are they just chopped liver? They certainly seem to establish notability to me. -- DaveSeidel 21:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the best thing to do is to list him as an alumni, but rather than just say that he's a civil rights activist, give a more precise one-sentence description of why he's notable and cite the Wired piece. GabrielF 22:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. I think it is appropriate to mention Bill Scannell on this article However, the addition (or re-addition) of Bill should not be done by Bill, or someone acting on his behalf. (For those unfamiliar with wikipedia policies, WP:NOT#SOAP would not be a bad place to start learning). -- Gruepig 01:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

GabrielF, please do not risk damaging your Wikipedia reputation by continuing this farce of removing Bill Scannel as a Notable. Do a search for "Bill Scannell" on Google. Either you are uninformed and are willfully remaining so, or you have an axe to grind. Either condition can be harmful to your future on Wikipedia after you are defeated while trying to defend such a weak position in a mediated argument. I don't care if purple primates from the planet pluto put Bill on the list, he belongs there, if it doesn't stay there, the issue will get mediated. Matt Burch 19:08, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

For what it is worth, Bill Scannell is one of the alumni the college officially lists as "notable" in the current admission literature. (SRC Fact Book, page 29). Like the original listing some time ago here on Wikipedia, that was not done at Mr. Scannell's request or prompting. In fact, I suspect Mr. Scannell is unaware that he is currently listed in the college's official literature in this regard. There are several other alumni listed as "notable" in the college's literature who wouldn't match Wikipedia's definition of that word; however, I would argue that there is enough to include Mr. Scannell here not only under Wikipedia's guidelines but also in the efforts of making a more complete entry for the college and to be more in line with the college's usual, published listings on which alumni are considered notable. -- rwf
I think we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves Matt. For a little perspective, I've been involved in disputes on wikipedia with neo-Nazis, conspiracy theorists of more varieties than I knew existed, and editors with axes to grnd about issues involving Iran, the Holocaust, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, 9/11, etc. By comparison this is a triviality. Disagreements and reverts are a normal part of the process of building articles. If you don't like a change, the solution is to talk about it civilly on this page, assuming good faith, and talking about the merits of the edit, not the editor. Formal mediation never happens this early in a dispute and threatening it before even attempting to resolve it reasonable, especially when the conflict is over something so minor, is pointless. GabrielF 23:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
No, I was merely indicating that you had made an error, and were apparently not recognizing the error, even after DaveSiedel provided several links indicating Bill Scannell's activities in privacy politics. Errors aren't bad. Everyone makes them. I have edited Bill Scannel's entry to include a link to a very short list of his accomplishments published when Bill was invited to speak at the Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard Law School. Please indicate if this is in any way an unacceptable link to demonstrate Bill's noteworthiness, and indicate the reason why. If the mentioned link is not wiki-acceptable, I will search through the 12100 Google links featuring Bill's name and select another, more wiki-friendly link.Matt Burch 08:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Note: User:Matt_Burch is a brand-new Wikipedia contributor, and as such probably doesn't know very much about how things are done here. He was probably attracted here by an off-wiki discussion of this article, seeing has he has not contributed to any other articles. Don't bite the newbies, even if they show up with teeth bared. --FOo 23:55, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I am in no way concerned about being "bitten". It's part of the learning process.Matt Burch 08:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

It isn't clear that this is self-promotion, although I did a whois on the IP address and got a location of Alaska, which I think is where Bill lives. Could be a fan of his. Can't say. In any event, it's not pleasant that that individual started violating WP:NPA in edit summaries, rather than citing sources -- such as the admissions literature .... --FOo 22:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Bill Scannell is absolutely a notable figure, as the numerous citations above demonstrate. There's no doubt in my mind that he belongs on the list. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 12:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Several Updates

I've added an Academics and Athletics section and MIGHT (but probably won't) add a facilities section soon. I have removed the trivia section and incorporated it into the two new sections already mentioned. I am still looking for a good place to put this tidbit: *In 2000, Simon's Rock was rated as the second most gay-friendly college in the United States by gay.com. A survey around that time showed that a full third of the students were not heterosexual. Bigo494 02:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe a "student life" sort of section, about what it's like to be a student at Simon's Rock. Perhaps the Events section could be incorporated into that, since it really shouldn't have its own section. Maybe Athletics could go in there too. Nice updated though. Jesuschex 05:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Founding date

Massachusetts corporate filings show that Simon's Rock was founded Sept. 15, 1964. Yes, the first class didn't enter until 1966, but do you really think a school could be founded and have its first classes in the same year? I'd imagine those first two years were taken to build the campus and get it ready for students. But the founding was definitely in 1964. http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/corpsearch/CorpSearchSummary.asp?ReadFromDB=True&UpdateAllowed=&FEIN=042326584 (If that link doesn't work, go to http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/corpsearch/corpsearchinput.asp and search for it.)

The point is, don't change the founding year to 1966! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jesuschex (talk • contribs) 04:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Environmental group

I have no personal knowledge of the school at all, but it seems unlikely to me that there is a group there called "Environmentally Conscience Students" as the article now states. Perhaps someone with better information could check that out. Tim Ross·talk 20:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shooting

I don't think "1992 Shooting" should need more lines than "Academics". Any other opinions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.77.112 (talk) 07:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)