Talk:Barbed tape

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when was razor wire invented?????

Oops. I accidentally marked a major edit as minor. So I've just done a non-minor (but in fact trivial) edit so it shows up in peoples' watch lists. If you see what I mean. Securiger 23:36, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Michael Hardy wrote:

My understanding has been that "use" as a noun means the act of using, whereas "usage" means custom or convention.

I think what was intended in the header you edited was "manner of using". According to my dictionary, "custom or convention" is the secondary definition of "usage"; the primary defintion is "the act, manner, or amount of using". Whereas "use" as a noun has primary "the act of using", secondary "the manner of using; syn. usage". Which is arguably less than a full iota of difference, so I wouldn't sweat it. Securiger 05:26, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Razor wire or Barbed tape?

The article is titled Razor wire, but it talks mostly of Barbed tape. Are these the same, as I suspect? Can anyone knowledgeable fix this? --Orzetto 11:59, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I've moved the article to barbed tape to reduce confusion. ··gracefool |☺ 05:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concertina wire merge

Err, why? In my experience, I very rarely hear the phrases "concertina wire" and "razor wire" being used interchangably and I've never heard the terms "concertina wire" and "barbed tape" used interchangably. The modern US Army uses three types of barbed wire-type constructs:

  • Barbed wire: Braided wire, with short spikes sticking out of it every few inches. Comes on a reel.
  • Concertina wire: A large (1m in diameter, roughly 30m in length) coil, with rectangular razors clamped onto it every 6 inches or so.
  • Razor wire: A small (Maybe a foot in diameter, not sure how long it stretches to) coil, with diamond-shaped razors clamped onto it every few inches.

I can't speak for other branches of service or other countries, but that's the terminology as I understand it and the 3 types of wire are very distinct. EvilCouch 16:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

What's the difference between razor and concertina then? Nothing more than the size of the coil? What about the double helix vs single helix aspect? What is the difference between concertina wire and constantine wire?
OK, hope I can answer some of these. "Razor" and "concertina" are orthogonal classifications. "Razor wire" is a slangy term for what manufacturers, quartermasters and city ordinances generally called barbed tape, and refers to the type of cutting surface: blades vs. the points found in barbed wire. "Concertina" refers to the shape into which the wire is formed, i.e. interlocking, mutually supporting coils which are easily expanded (like a concertina); it can be made from barbed wire or barbed tape. The size of the coil is determined by intended function; self-supporting ground based obstacles (which are invariably concertinas) need to be big enough that they can't simply be leapt over, so they are typically about 1 m in diameter (or a little less, if overstretched.) Coils for mounting on top of fences or walls only need to be large enough that they can't be climbed over, which requires much smaller coils. They also don't need to be self-supporting, so they usually are single coils rather than concertinas, which in turn means that the diameter is easily adjustable (unlike concertinas). It should be pointed out that apart from concertina wire, all wire (barbed wire, barbed tape, plain steel wire, speaker cable, whatever) initially comes in single coils. It can then be stretched out to give a straight strand, or left loosely coiled to give it a bit more width. As for "constantine wire"; I have been involved with military, civilian and agricultural wire obstacles for more than a decade, and until I read it here, "constantine wire" to me was a common misspelling of "constantan wire", a special type of electrical cable! I would almost have written it off as a malapropism, although from some quick googling, there does seem to be at least one barbed tape manufacturer now using the term. I would be interested (and mildly surprised) to see if there is any kind of official definition. -- 203.40.201.164 04:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The barbs aren't "clamped on" every few inches; they're part of a continuous piece of tape that is wrapped around the wire itself.
Almost right; the tape isn't wrapped, it's cold-crimped. Yes the crimp is continuous. -- 203.40.201.164 04:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Barbed wire is made of wire alone, twisted into barbs regularly. I can see it getting its own article, though I could also see it being merged, too.
It already has its own article, at barbed wire. Because of its longer history, and its use in agriculture as well as security, that article is much more extensive than this one and could not possibly be merged. -- 203.40.201.164 04:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, though, concertina, constantine, and razor wire are all the same thing, implemented in different shapes and sizes and given different names, but all fundamentally the same, and with overlap between the names and implementations. They should be merged. — Omegatron 16:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The primary difference between concertina wire and razor wire is the shape of the razors. Concertina wire's razors are rectangularly shaped and will catch on your skin and clothes but are unlikely to cause anything more than superficial cuts. Razor wire's razors have pretty acute angles and could result in a nasty cut if you're careless around it.

Concertina wire up close

Image:Concertina wire close-up.jpg
Razor wire up close

EvilCouch 16:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I just uploaded that last night. I fail to see a reason why they should be separate articles. — Omegatron 17:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Erm, the existing concertina wire and barbed tape articles already explain the difference. Barbed tape ("razor wire") vs. barbed wire refers to the type of cutting surface on the wire; steel wire points vs. steel tape blades. Whereas "concertina" refers to the shape of the interlocking, expandable coils into which the wire is formed, and can be made from either barbed wire or barbed tape. Both barbed tape concertinas and barbed wire concertinas are now quite common in military usage, although the barbed wire ones are the original version and worldwide are probably still more common. In civilian usage, barbed wire concertinas were always rare but barbed tape concertinas have recently made big inroads into the commercial market -- with considerable controversy. BTW the image to the left, labelled "Razor wire up close", is most accurately called long barb barbed tape; it is coiled here, but not formed into concertinas. The linked image called "Concertina wire up close" is short barb barbed tape, and is formed into concertinas. Concertinas can also be made from barbed wire (and traditionally were), for example here is a photo from the VN War era: http://www.utapao.org/harrypiskun/MVC-004For.jpg -- 203.40.201.164 03:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Razor, concertina, con...all the same concept!

Sure, all of them have their differences, but all the wiring (barbed tape (razor wire), concertina, constantine) have the same fixture and surface to them, which is sharp razor teeth that eat through skin when grabbed tightly. All of them have a placement on permanent fencing (except concertina) and have the same purpose. There should be a single page talking about the wiring itself, but also having topics within the article talking about each type of wiring. People won't tell which is which (between concertina wire ITSELF, razor wire, and/or constantine wire) if they were to see them, without them being labeled as such and such. I'm for the merging. JustN5:12 01:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I now appreciate that "concertina" and "razor" are orthogonal concepts, but they are so closely related they need to be addressed in the same article. — Omegatron 03:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Barbed Tape and Concertina Wire Difference

In section 2.1, there was still an argument that Barbed Tape and Concertina Wire are very similar and related. There was a mis-statement:

"...all the wiring (barbed tape (razor wire), concertina, 
constantine) have the same fixture and surface to them, which is sharp razor teeth that eat 
through skin when grabbed tightly. All of them have a placement on permanent fencing (except
concertina) and..."

Barbed Tape has little "razors" and is a format of a barrier wire, Concertina Wire is a type of barrier and can have little razors, OR wire barbs and is meant to be deployed stand alone, not on top of a fence.

From above:

"Barbed tape ("razor wire") vs. barbed wire refers to the type of cutting surface on the 
wire; steel wire points vs. steel tape blades. Whereas "concertina" refers to the shape of
the interlocking, expandable coils into which the wire is formed, and can be made from either
barbed wire or barbed tape. "

This difference is enough to warrant the two different articles, unless there were to be one massive article regarding "Wire Type Barriers" but it doesn't sound like that to me.

Please carefully read through all the previous statements to understand the difference prior to arguing for a merge. Tim Sailor 17:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


As it's been more than 9 months and the consensus seems to be that the articles should remain distinct, I've removed the 'merge suggestion' tag from them. Tofof 05:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Countering" section

I just added a {{fact}} tag to the claim that the Bangalore torpedo is useless against the tempered wire. Actually, I am highly skeptical that this is true, for two reasons:

  1. Most military grade barbed wire concertinas also have tempered wire cores, and bangalores are far from useless against them.
  2. I have never used a bangalore torpedo against a barbed tape obstacle, but I have used them against straight barbed wire obstacles and barbed wire concertinas with high tensile steel cores. The bangalore cuts the wire like a hot knife through butter, tempered or not. In fact, it sometimes even cuts through the steel pickets too.

-- Securiger 08:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I dropped the section. I, too, have seen the statement proven false and since it's been nearly two months since it was tagged and there's no source, it's gone. EvilCouch (talk) 10:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)